C&L intake

[SchwermoRacing]

Should I just get the pipe or is it worth getting the extra that replaces everyhting before the TB?

[FordMan]

I would get it all or do nothing

[SchwermoRacing]

Originally Posted by FordMan

I would get it all or do nothing

well does the equilelant of a cut airbox, and a different MAF houseing really help any?

[FordMan]

No CAI does all that much in and of itself, but with improved exhaust its' effects are more significant performance wise. Is it worth the money? Not to everyone for the HP gained per dollar spent. If you have doubts about the benefits of a cut airbox and different MAF housing, you should also have doubts about the wisdom of getting only an intake tube and stick with the stocker.

[SchwermoRacing]

Originally Posted by FordMan

No CAI does all that much in and of itself, but with improved exhaust its' effects are more significant performance wise. Is it worth the money? Not to everyone for the HP gained per dollar spent. If you have doubts about the benefits of a cut airbox and different MAF housing, you should also have doubts about the wisdom of getting only an intake tube and stick with the stocker.

well i know that I can cut my airbox and not have to spend another $150 for it. The real question is mor of less...what the point of the maf housing? if it just because its a different airbox? It doesnt seem to replace the MAF itself.

[ponygt65]

THe C and L has the 85mm Maf...that is great for upgraded N/A or Fi mods....basically..it is a great starting point for more mods.

ALso, to maximize any mod, a tune should be done....but, that can get pricey if you do it after every mod...I suggest picking the right mods and setting up for a dyno after a few mods......make sure you get the right ones though....(if you catch my drift).

[FordMan]

Originally Posted by SchwermoRacing

well i know that I can cut my airbox and not have to spend another $150 for it. The real question is mor of less...what the point of the maf housing? if it just because its a different airbox? It doesnt seem to replace the MAF itself.

Less restriction on air flow

[TRMach1]

The C&L inlet pipe is really designed to bolt up to their MAF housing. I had a hell of a time trying to get it to bolt up to the stock housing, so I threw in the towel and got the whole thing, from airbox to throttle body!

You're correct in that, it's only the housing that is bigger, and not the MAF electronics themselves, but the stock unit can calibrate itself to handle the slightly larger volume of air moving through the housing and pipe. Some people get a lean condition from the C&L, but I didn't see any real difference, and if anything, a slightly richer condition, but that's just my experience.

The main reason I went with the C&L as opposed to some of the others out there, was that it provided a good solid "boss port" to tap my nitrous nozzle into, and would contain any accidental flare-ups (read explosions) if they ocurred.

[Ralph Greene]

Stock set up with K&N filter more than capable to support over 300 RW with a tune. But C&L makes a nice complete thought out engineered unit.

But if you decide to use the C&L set up, it will require a tune, especially if you have added 2 1/2" exhaust system.

My experience, and that of my performance shop, is comparing stock set up with K&N filter with a tune, VS C&L with a tune....the C&L may be worth 2-3 HP up to the 300 RW or so area. I know we have one member on here with 360 RW with stock set up and K&N drop in filter.

Remember the MAF sensor is not a mod. It either can measure the air mass or it cannot. It does not need a larger housing up to at least 300 RW area.

If you just add any popular cold air kit, you will usually make some power from running a tad leaner, but you better be sure you aren't too lean. And you have to get on a dyno to check that, so might as well take advantage of the dyno time to add some timing also. And when you have to add back some fuel, you are mostly back where you started....maybe a couple HP ahead.

Hope this is clear to you. Sorry if it goes against popular internet belief.

[SchwermoRacing]

Well I already have an X2 from another car that i can reuse for the Mach so I'd only have to pay for the tune.

Thanks guys looks like I'll get the whole thing.

Does anyone know a place I cna ordor it online? every place seems I have to call

[ponygt65]

Originally Posted by SchwermoRacing

Well I already have an X2 from another car that i can reuse for the Mach so I'd only have to pay for the tune.

Thanks guys looks like I'll get the whole thing.

Does anyone know a place I cna ordor it online? every place seems I have to call

Ebay.

[mach_12003]

so is the C&L worth the extra money just for the maf. JLT ram air is 160, CL is a hell of alot more, with a tune would the hp #'s really be worth the extra money

[FordMan]

Neither one of them is worth the money if you're counting HP gained per dollar spent. I just don't worry about the cost of a CAI that much myself.

[mach_12003]

SO which is worth the money! are both going to add the same hp with a tune.

[SchwermoRacing]

is seems neother is really "worth it" unless you wanna go in teh 350+ range since our stocker is apparently really well designed. atleast when it comes to dyno numbers. I' dliek to see how teh flow numbers would lookwhen doing like 60-120MPH to see if either is worse or better during actual driving...but oh well. The C&L seems like a high quality piece so I'm going with it.

No tto put down the JLT, but it to me looks cheap...not saying its a bad performer. when when they both performe the same, I'll pay the extra for the more professional looking piece.

[Ralph Greene]

OK....So lets examine how the so called cold air kits work on our cars (well on the one I had). And also keep in mind the Mach 1's have a good air intake flow path compared to say the 05 and up Mustangs and some other older Mustangs.

Most Mach 1's come from the factory with WOT A/F around the 12.5 range. This is safely rich and a smart way for the factory to build them. It allows for some build tolerances and also allows for some fuel system degradation as the car ages...which usually runs toward leaning over time.

Now along comes C&L and others who make some nicely engineered products they want to sell for our cars. They are smart, and from the test Mach they used they know what the stock A/F is on most Machs. They also know if they can get A/F to 13-13.25 (On bone stock car with no other mods) or so they can make 5-10 HP. So they increase the housing from 80 MM to 85 MM, a 6% increase in MAF housing size. The Mach computer still thinks it's measuring air mass from a 80 MM housing, so it will not compensate, and car now runs about 6% leaner, or about ideal. It makes some extra power.

However, most owners also have some exhaust mods, and with exhaust mods, car now runs too lean. So you get tune and add back some fuel. Leaness goes away and so does most of the extra power. You are almost back to where you were stock, except with dyno tune you can now optimize timing. But you could do this anyway with tune and K&N drop in filter.

This is why some of us who understand a little about how our computers work think the cold air kits don't do much on near stock cars. And we know a free flowing K&N filter and 80 MM MAF sensor plenty capable to support a lot more than stock HP levels. I'm not knocking the better made kits, just trying to explain a little what is going on with a near stock car.

[mach_12003]

very well put indeed, i just think i get the JLT and not mess with the bigger maf.

[Thunderbolt]

Bottom line, with the C@L you'll gain 3RWHP and 3RWTQ, no more, no less. MM@FF did a test on the C@L. They installed it and did a dyno run. They gained 8RWHP. A week later they did another dyno test and the RWHP gain had dropped to 3 RWHP. The computer does some adjusting and the HP gain drops. I read this article long after I had bought my C@L and dynoed it. I got the same 3RWHP gain when tuned in.

[ponygt65]

IN conclusion....all cars and dyno's are different...go with the one you think looks the best...LOL

Seriously......if you like the looks of the stock intake setup, and aren't going positiv displ. blower or nitrous...then stay with it and go with the drop in. If you want better looks...then go with an aftermarket.

I think there are too many variables and too many different opinions from tuner to tuner to say anything is certain beyond marketing.


I went with K and N CAI on my EX's DSG.......simply because of market share. If I had a warranty problem or question, I could go to any distributor. I didn't have to rely on ONE or TWO locations to get info. or something taken care of.

[eightballrj]

Originally Posted by Ralph Greene

This is why some of us who understand a little about how our computers work think the cold air kits don't do much on near stock cars. And we know a free flowing K&N filter and 80 MM MAF sensor plenty capable to support a lot more than stock HP levels. I'm not knocking the better made kits, just trying to explain a little what is going on with a near stock car.

This is only true on the first few drives before the correction cycle begins. OBD2 cars reference the O2 sensors during part throttle driving and cruising. If it sees a global lean condition it will adjust accordingly. The problem is how much correction the Ford engineers have built into the algorithm.

[03AV8R]

Ive found out something just beyond the dyno pulls that id like to share.. At the track a car making 315 RW & 330 Tq (dynoed over & over) with a really good quality X-type Off road exhaust system & the C&L runs 11.40 to 11.50 in the 1/4 mile...

Same exact car with a Larger MAF, JLT intake (& exhaust system almost completely removed) only makes 301 RW & 316 Tq but now runs 11.21 to 11.31 in the 1/4 almost every pass.. Why?? Throttle response?? Better timing adjusted in?? less weight?? Does the dyno tell the whole story?? Aparantly not!

Me & the wife literally bolted on the JLT at the track & picked up a solid tenth from the previous 3 passes over the C&L.. Couldnt MAKE the car run that slow again.. Went to the dyno & was down on power?? Went back to track with a freshened tune for the stuff & went even faster with less power... Adjusted on the timing some more at the track & ET'd better again.. Moral of the story i suppose is: Make it pump more air in & out easier & quicker & it'll go faster regardless what the dyno says! 301 to 320RW is prolly the same anyways from one day to the next.

[2k4mach]

Originally Posted by eightballrj

This is only true on the first few drives before the correction cycle begins. OBD2 cars reference the O2 sensors during part throttle driving and cruising. If it sees a global lean condition it will adjust accordingly. The problem is how much correction the Ford engineers have built into the algorithm.

and that means what at WOT when the car is in open-loop and the 02 sensors arent being used?


Ralph was talking more about the a/f at WOT being leaner...........
and just so you know fords EEC-V learning is actually pretty crappy from the factory...........its an 80 cell table, when in stock configuration the computer only takes readings at certain low rpm ranges and load points and basically uses those corrections for the rest of the table. IIRC out of 80 cells in that table when stock only 11 of those cells are actually used for learning the rest are filled in according to those 11.

[2k4mach]

Originally Posted by 03AV8R

Moral of the story i suppose is: Make it pump more air in & out easier & quicker & it'll go faster regardless what the dyno says! 301 to 320RW is prolly the same anyways from one day to the next.

of course lol the motor is just a giant air pump

[machman8]

av8r, just a question, what did your trap speeds look like for those two different runs you described???