Built Motor...Ready for a big shot of N20?

[senator]

So after discovering I was missing a piece of the #8 piston (hence the smoking problem I had lol), I'm finally going to build the motor.
Going 10.1:1 Compression, .20 over
Manley Flat pistons
Manley H beams w/ARP bolts
King Race bearings

At first I was thinking Eaton swap, but now I'm considering a big shot of dope for my weekend warrior. I see mostly everyone on the N20 hp thread, built motor or not, was only running the max 150hp kit. The other guys running bigger shots, didn't describe their system very well.

I couldn't seem to find any good information about the Mach motors running bigger shots, albeit some problems with puddling the stock intake. I'm thinking in the 175-250 range.

What's my best option to setting up this option?
Dual Stage?
150 wet/ 50 dry? Vice Versa?
Any particular systems/kits I should be looking that?

Thanks M1R!

[TKat13]

Port Nitrous injection to me sounds like the ideal nitrous setup for big shots. Have you looked at Sullivan intakes? I think they come with nitrous bosses on each runner. Then get an HPP Sheetmetal upper.

Just an idea, there maybe better options out there.

[senator]

Originally Posted by TKat13

Port Nitrous injection to me sounds like the ideal nitrous setup for big shots. Have you looked at Sullivan intakes? I think they come with nitrous bosses on each runner. Then get an HPP Sheetmetal upper.

Just an idea, there maybe better options out there.

Very true. I guess I want to stick with the stock intakes to stay cost effective.
After $1000 for intakes plus a complete port injection setup, I'd be at centri blower costs.


The dual stage system seems to be preferred to prevent the puddling, but which way is best. I see people doing bigger wet/lower dry, and other people doing vice versa...

[04MACH!DSG]

Might want to get in touch with Roy on here. I know he was running a pretty healthy shot.

[311-420]

I wouldn't run a wet shot that size with a stock lower. 150 tops.

Going to have to look into a custom short runner intake (either by Roy or na svt) or a dry shot to keep it all together with that much juice.

[senator]

Thanks for the reply, this seems to mirror everything else I've been seeing as well.


Is this the common advice for something I'm looking into???:

Originally Posted by BlvdBrzr

Run a 125 - 150 dry shot out of the hole.
Enable a second stage upon 2nd gear activation, via 50-75 shot, WET.
SO:

• 1st stage....Dry shot, tuned. (150 shot)
• 2nd stage....Wet shot. (50+shot)
• mount a micro switch to where the second kit is OFF when the car is in first gear (under shift boot) As soon as you rip it out of first gear, into second, the second stage will kick in. Hold on.

This will enable you to run a big shot, without as much fuel going through those stock runners...and also requires LESS fuel system. IE, if you ran a 200+ shot dry, you'd need a killer crazy fuel system.

The way I listed, you can use a good pump and a BAP....42 # injectors....(47's are cheap right now) and everything else stock.

[uscstew]

I've battled the same issue your having for some time now. I've decided that I'm going to do a 50-100 dry, and a 150+- wet on a dedicated fuel system

[senator]

Originally Posted by uscstew

I've battled the same issue your having for some time now. I've decided that I'm going to do a 50-100 dry, and a 150+- wet on a dedicated fuel system

Those dedicated systems seem pretty pricey.
I think I need to do more research to see what mods are easier to support the bigger wet or dry shot.

[uscstew]

Making mine. $50 in fittings, $100 on pump, $30 on regulator, tank was free but it has to be modified

[senator]

Originally Posted by uscstew

Making mine. $50 in fittings, $100 on pump, $30 on regulator, tank was free but it has to be modified

That definitely makes it easier... lol


Now I'm thinking I should be wondering why it is so hard to find info on built 4v with a bunch of dope...seems like everyone just goes blown instead...

[gonemad]

The 2 stage system sounds like it could work. At a certain point you have to not have a budget constraint (to a degree) if you have a built shortblock and not wanting to spend the money to get what you want then the results are going to be less than stellar, not to mention pinching pennies leads to snapping rods.

Playing with N2O above the 150 level gets into a bit a different ball game. To set up a nitrous system for serious use is not the budget friendly power adder as seen in small doses. There are many things to consider other than just the system itself. Also consider that big a shot you will only get 2 maybe 3 solid passes from a bottle. Multiple full bottles and acess to easy/reliable refilling is something to think about. I wouldnt show up to race with less than 3 bottles full ready to go.

It all goes back, if you wanna play, you gotta pay.

[TKat13]

Originally Posted by senator

That definitely makes it easier... lol


Now I'm thinking I should be wondering why it is so hard to find info on built 4v with a bunch of dope...seems like everyone just goes blown instead...

I think the 'bottom line' is the problem, meaning Nitrous is not as cheap and readily available as it used to be. I pay $4.00 per lb, in other words, $40.00 every time I fill up the bottle, 80.00 when I go to the track (2 bottles). Nothing worse than running out. Over time you have spent the money it would have taken to drop a blower on. But, I still did it. I like the instant hit, but this is why I kept it to a 100 shot.

It is also a pain to have the bottle filled or better said, there is not anywhere close to fill it. I hate driving 25 miles just to get it filled. Someday I will have a turbo.

[senator]

Originally Posted by gonemad

The 2 stage system sounds like it could work. At a certain point you have to not have a budget constraint (to a degree) if you have a built shortblock and not wanting to spend the money to get what you want then the results are going to be less than stellar, not to mention pinching pennies leads to snapping rods.

Playing with N2O above the 150 level gets into a bit a different ball game. To set up a nitrous system for serious use is not the budget friendly power adder as seen in small doses. There are many things to consider other than just the system itself. Also consider that big a shot you will only get 2 maybe 3 solid passes from a bottle. Multiple full bottles and acess to easy/reliable refilling is something to think about. I wouldnt show up to race with less than 3 bottles full ready to go.

It all goes back, if you wanna play, you gotta pay.

I fully agree. It's going to take some cash. I thought I would look into this method as well as S/C and make a decision after I'm fully informed.

I'm still trying to figure out whether the 150/175 wet should be a starting point or start with a dry shot tuned. (With supporting fuel/tune of course in both cases)

Originally Posted by TKat13

I think the 'bottom line' is the problem, meaning Nitrous is not as cheap and readily available as it used to be. I pay $4.00 per lb, in other words, $40.00 every time I fill up the bottle, 80.00 when I go to the track (2 bottles). Nothing worse than running out. Over time you have spent the money it would have taken to drop a blower on. But, I still did it. I like the instant hit, but this is why I kept it to a 100 shot.

It is also a pain to have the bottle filled or better said, there is not anywhere close to fill it. I hate driving 25 miles just to get it filled. Someday I will have a turbo.

Luckily in Houston we have a multitude of places to choose from. Prices don't seem to vary too much. The shop building my motor is a dealer.

Also, the car (before it went down) is driven an average of 2-3 days a month, so I won't be racing every weekend. Good point on the multiple bottles though, definitely consider keeping a few extra handy.

[02gtvertible]

no, ive found out that nitrous (when done right) isnt cheap, and i havent even made it to the bottle filling stage.

[mach03one]

Not sure if its directly related to the OP post, but what systems are people using for a dry nitrous shot?

I had read about the NOS kit (05116) that uses an electrical system (enrichment controller) to trick the fuel pressure sensor into increasing fuel pressure.

Link to instructions from jegs http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInst.../741-05116.pdf

I really like the simplicity of dry shot.

[mach03one]

Also just read about the Edelbrock dry system (70404) that uses the nitrous pressure stepped down to 50psi on the fuel pressure dampner. This kit says it's for the 03/04 cobra.

Any body have experience with either? Or what mechanism are people using to boost fuel pressure during activation?

link to instructions from jegs http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInst.../350-70404.pdf

[TKat13]

Originally Posted by 02gtvertible

no, ive found out that nitrous (when done right) isnt cheap, and i havent even made it to the bottle filling stage.

Isn't that the truth, when done right is the key! The cheap HP quickly turns into more $ as you really need to add a window switch, then for me, I was not happy with Zex so new solenoids, different pill packets, new cold air intake with a nitrous boss. Duel Bottle bracket coming soon. High quality relays, switches, Fuel pump, bottle heater, safety blowdown tube, pressure gauge, tuning...

Was it worth it? Yes, it is super fun and I have learned a ton doing it.

[senator]

Originally Posted by TKat13

Isn't that the truth, when done right is the key! The cheap HP quickly turns into more $ as you really need to add a window switch, then for me, I was not happy with Zex so new solenoids, different pill packets, new cold air intake with a nitrous boss. Duel Bottle bracket coming soon. High quality relays, switches, Fuel pump, bottle heater, safety blowdown tube, pressure gauge, tuning...

Was it worth it? Yes, it is super fun and I have learned a ton doing it.

I have figured all that in as well.
It was the $600 lower, $400 upper, $300 TB, and $900 for direct port machining ON TOP of all the peripherals, that had me wondering.

Thanks for all the replies so far guys. I appreciate the advice.

[Roy]

The best (safest) way to run a big shot with a full runner intake is to use a dry system with the fuel being added by the injectors thru the tune. You could go as far as using eight dry nozzles and make a direct port dry system using 80# pound injectors. With an adequate fuel system you could run a HUGE shot this way. I have 83# injectors in mine and making 1024 rwhp thru a TH400 with a 6K converter. I don’t trust kits that "trick" the ECU by spraying nitrous across the MAF.

[senator]

Originally Posted by Roy

The best (safest) way to run a big shot with a full runner intake is to use a dry system with the fuel being added by the injectors thru the tune. You could go as far as using eight dry nozzles and make a direct port dry system using 80# pound injectors. With an adequate fuel system you could run a HUGE shot this way. I have 83# injectors in mine and making 1024 rwhp thru a TH400 with a 6K converter. I don’t trust kits that "trick" the ECU by spraying nitrous across the MAF.

That's impressive!
And much much higher than my goals...lol

With the typical (LTs, 98 cams, CAI, spacer, exhaust, tune) mods combined with a 150 shot, I'm seeing typical 380-410hp/450-520tq numbers.

My goals are at least 420hp/500tq on gas.
Dual GT pumps, BAP, 42 or 60#ers.
T56 with 26 spline input shaft.
Supporting mods listed above (including built motor).
Tuned for new motor and gas once complete.

With that in mind, would you suggest starting with tuning up to the 150 shot dry, and adding a 2nd stage of wet to get to my goal if necessary?

[Roy]

Originally Posted by senator

That's impressive!
And much much higher than my goals...lol

With the typical (LTs, 98 cams, CAI, spacer, exhaust, tune) mods combined with a 150 shot, I'm seeing typical 380-410hp/450-520tq numbers.

My goals are at least 420hp/500tq on gas.
Dual GT pumps, BAP, 42 or 60#ers.
T56 with 26 spline input shaft.
Supporting mods listed above (including built motor).
Tuned for new motor and gas once complete.

With that in mind, would you suggest starting with tuning up to the 150 shot dry, and adding a 2nd stage of wet to get to my goal if necessary?

That should be fine. The air speed in the intake at WOT with a 150 shot will be high enough to keep the wet kit from puddling.
Use a window switch set at 3800 rpm for the low for the wet kit.