Which internals (transmission)?

[LXS]

So I've had my 3650 rebuilt twice and it's starting to fail again. I just got my car back up and running on the 1st of this month and it's already popping out of 2nd gear when decelerating and coming to a stop, and 1st gear's gears are slamming into each other when I'm at a complete stop (red light, stop sign, turning the car on in the morning), and putting it into 1st! In order to avoid the gears from slamming into each other I have to shift it into 2nd gear first for about a second or two, THEN I can put it into 1st gear without any issues. The transmission had been freshly rebuilt but sat for approximately two years before I finally was able to get my car going again, so it's not like I could take the car (or tranny) back to the shop and have them take a look at it under warranty. Anyway, so my thing is, I'm very familiar with working on cars, I've built motors and torn cars apart and put them back together again. So with that being said, I'd like to take a crack at rebuilding my transmission and want to know what upgrade parts or kits there are out there that'll (hopefully) fix this issue once and for all! I took a look at the other thread regarding the Ratech part and it looks mighty interesting! But! Depending on cost of parts for the tranny at the end of the day, would it just be cheaper to save up and spend the cash on a built tranny from say D & D Performance? Or can I build a high quality and strong transmission at home and save some coin while doing so?! Thanks for any and all help, advice and input!

[Mach828]

Most local places won't even rebuild the 3650. They just buy them from a larger distributor and send yours in as a core. At least I couldn't find anyone who would want to rebuild it. I've built autos myself but not sure what makes the 3650 so challenging. Your best bet is to ditch the 3650 all together. Odd that it would be having those issues on a fresh rebuild wonder if its not another issue.

[32VALVR]

Hey LXS, been a while.
Long story short. I had my 3650 rebuilt 4 times, twice by Ford under the extended warranty I bought the car with, and then twice by the best shop in the valley. I make alot more power then you, but on my fifth 3rd gear failure I twisted the input shaft and its junk. If you can get a T56 swap, 3650's are junk. I don't care who makes them.
PM me, I think I know a dude in Orange whos got one sitting around. I sold him my T56 when I went Auto for his 01 cobra.

[lcaptmorg]

So strange I hear how every one say how much 3650s suck. Yet they can be build to handle more power than a t56. They are lighter and have some decent ratios available. If the tranny crapped out that fast it wasn't build right.

Talk to the guys at promotion, d&d , 3650 source , gforce, they can get you the parts needed to do it correctly. They are not hard to rebuild.

[not a gt]

Originally Posted by lcaptmorg

So strange I hear how every one say how much 3650s suck. Yet they can be build to handle more power than a t56. They are lighter and have some decent ratios available. If the tranny crapped out that fast it wasn't build right.

Talk to the guys at promotion, d&d , 3650 source , gforce, they can get you the parts needed to do it correctly. They are not hard to rebuild.

This brings up a question: If you were going to rebuild a 3650, with the ratios available , how would you go about picking them? Would you go by what rear end ratio you are running? For example, with a Procharher making peak HP at 6750 with a 4.10 gear, what would be the best ratio set? Is there a calculator for this somewhere? Sorry Op, no hijack intended, I see this choice in my future, been rebuilt once, but has lasted abuse for 4 years thus far, but I had a friend rebuild and I have no idea what is in it, I just gave him $400 and he gave me the tranny back.

[LXS]

No worries man, it's a great question and one I'd love to see an answer on! And if your friend lived closer or shipping wouldn't be such a pain, I'd be hitting you up for his info! Hahaha

I know I can go t56 or t5, but I would like to stick with the 3650 because of the 5th gear overdrive. Yes I know the t56 has a double over drive, but it's gear ratios are also taller than the 3650's and although my car is primarily a daily driver, I don't want to lose or hinder any of my 1st gear launch capabilities and take full advantage of my 4.56s at all times! I know it probably sounds stupid to say after the money I've had to fork out for two rebuilds, but I would prefer to not have to fork out extra money on parts to adapt to my car for a t56, t5, etc. The 3650 came with the car, I've got everything for the tranny, so if at all possible, I'd like to build and beef it up. I don't foresee the car ever making huge power numbers, but I would like the strength, reliability and reassurance there that I can daily drive my car, bang the gears in my car, launch on slicks at the track in my car and know that it's gonna take the abuse and want more! ...if at all possible! Hahaha

[Tommy Z]

Bought my car with 60K miles I think. Reverse and 3rd had bad synchros and 2nd was on its way out. I ordered the 3650 rebuild from D&D and had a friend rebuild mine. It's been three years and 30K miles with no issues. Pushing stock power/torque the entire time. I know this isn't much help, but I figured you'd like to hear from anyone who's had good results with their rebuild.

[4valve 4tw?]

Originally Posted by lcaptmorg

So strange I hear how every one say how much 3650s suck. Yet they can be build to handle more power than a t56. They are lighter and have some decent ratios available. If the tranny crapped out that fast it wasn't build right.

Talk to the guys at promotion, d&d , 3650 source , gforce, they can get you the parts needed to do it correctly. They are not hard to rebuild.

I couldn't even begin to estimate the number, of factory stock T56's behind cars making at least 500whp for 1000's upon 1000's of miles. When a TR6060 is capable of handling well beyond that, you'd have to give me an encyclopedia of evidence to show me that a 3650 can "be built to handle more." And if we're talking about 1500hp, all bets are off anyway.

Originally Posted by LXS

No worries man, it's a great question and one I'd love to see an answer on! And if your friend lived closer or shipping wouldn't be such a pain, I'd be hitting you up for his info! Hahaha

I know I can go t56 or t5, but I would like to stick with the 3650 because of the 5th gear overdrive. Yes I know the t56 has a double over drive, but it's gear ratios are also taller than the 3650's and although my car is primarily a daily driver, I don't want to lose or hinder any of my 1st gear launch capabilities and take full advantage of my 4.56s at all times! I know it probably sounds stupid to say after the money I've had to fork out for two rebuilds, but I would prefer to not have to fork out extra money on parts to adapt to my car for a t56, t5, etc. The 3650 came with the car, I've got everything for the tranny, so if at all possible, I'd like to build and beef it up. I don't foresee the car ever making huge power numbers, but I would like the strength, reliability and reassurance there that I can daily drive my car, bang the gears in my car, launch on slicks at the track in my car and know that it's gonna take the abuse and want more! ...if at all possible! Hahaha

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about the T56, so here are the ratios for the magnum swaps VS Mach 1 3650:
3650 (1)3.37 (2)2.0 (3)1.32 (4)1.0 (5).62
T56 (1)2.66 (2)1.78 (3)1.3 (4)1.0 (5).80 (6).62
T56 (1)2.97 (2)2.07 (3)1.43 (4)1.0 (5).74 (6).50

The second set is the one more commonly chosen so we'll stick with that.

As you can see yes, you loose some first gear punch but you're running 4.56's and it's not like you make peak power at 7000rpms anyway(4.56's are redonculous in a Mach 1, but that's a story for another time). 2nd and 3rd are better off, 4th is still 1:1, 5th is better off(in both gear sets even), and 6th is deeper allowing better cruising rpms. The T56 magnum is better in every aspect except ZOMG 1ST GEAR!!!!!!1!!

Now, just throwing one in from an 03/04 Cobra won't help. It runs ratios almost identical to the first ratio set, which is "slower" 1-3, and nets you no decrease in cruising rpm 5/6. A loose-loose. T56 are behind factory warrantied 500hp cars. The T56 magnum conversion is rated for 700lb-ft. Do it right, get it once, and it'll last the life of the car IMO.

[LXS]

Originally Posted by Tommy Z

Bought my car with 60K miles I think. Reverse and 3rd had bad synchros and 2nd was on its way out. I ordered the 3650 rebuild from D&D and had a friend rebuild mine. It's been three years and 30K miles with no issues. Pushing stock power/torque the entire time. I know this isn't much help, but I figured you'd like to hear from anyone who's had good results with their rebuild.

I definitely gotta look into their rebuild kit! Thanks for chiming in some info!

[LXS]

Originally Posted by 4valve 4tw?

I couldn't even begin to estimate the number, of factory stock T56's behind cars making at least 500whp for 1000's upon 1000's of miles. When a TR6060 is capable of handling well beyond that, you'd have to give me an encyclopedia of evidence to show me that a 3650 can "be built to handle more." And if we're talking about 1500hp, all bets are off anyway.



There seems to be a lot of misinformation about the T56, so here are the ratios for the magnum swaps VS Mach 1 3650:
3650 (1)3.37 (2)2.0 (3)1.32 (4)1.0 (5).62
T56 (1)2.66 (2)1.78 (3)1.3 (4)1.0 (5).80 (6).62
T56 (1)2.97 (2)2.07 (3)1.43 (4)1.0 (5).74 (6).50

The second set is the one more commonly chosen so we'll stick with that.

As you can see yes, you loose some first gear punch but you're running 4.56's and it's not like you make peak power at 7000rpms anyway(4.56's are redonculous in a Mach 1, but that's a story for another time). 2nd and 3rd are better off, 4th is still 1:1, 5th is better off(in both gear sets even), and 6th is deeper allowing better cruising rpms. The T56 magnum is better in every aspect except ZOMG 1ST GEAR!!!!!!1!!

Now, just throwing one in from an 03/04 Cobra won't help. It runs ratios almost identical to the first ratio set, which is "slower" 1-3, and nets you no decrease in cruising rpm 5/6. A loose-loose. T56 are behind factory warrantied 500hp cars. The T56 magnum conversion is rated for 700lb-ft. Do it right, get it once, and it'll last the life of the car IMO.

The 2nd one (t56) is the Viper spec right? I have nothing against the t56 and wouldn't mind installing one (the cool factor is definitely there!), I'm just trying to see what my options are, best bang for the buck....yeah I know lol. Anyway, I figure if a 3650 CAN be built to handle the ZOMG N/A powurZ and banging gears and not have to ever worry about 2nd popping out of gear and all the issues I've come across, and it still be leaps and bounds cheaper than a t56 swap, then why not?! If a 3650 build vs a t56 swap were practically identical (including every nook and cranny to make the swap 100% complete) and I could get that in a Viper spec, then by all means I'm on board with the trans swap!

[Mach828]

If you are just planning to put a normal t56 in, Cobra or Viper Spec I would just get a built 3650. If you want to put a t56 in, you should go with a magnum.

My built 3650 is worlds better than the stock 3650 in every aspect. But its still a 3650 and still a manual. . . .

[01yellerCobra]

Originally Posted by LXS

The 2nd one is the Viper spec right? I have nothing against the t56 and wouldn't mind installing one (the cool factor is definitely there!), I'm just trying to see what my options are, best bang for the buck....yeah I know lol. Anyway, I figure if a 3650 CAN be built to handle the ZOMG N/A powurZ and banging gears and not have to ever worry about 2nd popping out of gear and all the issues I've come across, and it still be leaps and bounds cheaper than a t56 swap, then why not?! If a 3650 build vs a t56 swap were practically identical (including every nook and cranny to make the swap 100% complete) and I could get that in a Viper spec, then by all means I'm on board with the trans swap!

The 3rd one is the Viper spec. The second one is the Cobra gearing. It really depends on how much you can find the T-56 for. I got mine for a steal. It was much cheaper than building a 3650. Plus it came with the crossmember. The only thing I had to find was a driveshaft. I kept the stock 10 spline input shaft so I was able to keep my clutch.

But I'm looking at going with the Magnum next year. I really want that .50 6th gear.

[LXS]

Originally Posted by 01yellerCobra

The 3rd one is the Viper spec. The second one is the Cob. gearing. It really depends on how much you can find the T-56 for. I got mine for a steal. It was much cheaper than building a 3650. Plus it came with the crossmember. The only thing I had to find was a driveshaft. I kept the stock 10 spline input shaft so I was able to keep my clutch.

But I'm looking at going with the Magnum next year. I really want that .50 6th gear.

Yeah that's what I meant by the "2nd one", the 2nd t56 gearing option that was posted. I should have made it more clearer and put t56 in parentheses, but anyway D&D has their 3650 for about $1200 which doesn't sound too bad, so that's kinda like the "guideline" that I'm using as far as 3650 vs t56 swap pricing goes. But if I were to just buy the rebuild kit, then that'll knock the price down significantly, obviously.


Edit: Just outta curiosity, I'm not familiar with tranny gear ratio options/kits, but is it possible...or do they even have one....to get a t56 gearing with a 1st gear the same as or similar to that of the 3650? How custom can you make it?

[Mach828]

$1,200 for a "built" 3650 is way too cheap. That is probably just a freshened up stock equivalent.

What is their top of the line build?

Mine is rated for 700hp and it cost me $2,200.

[LXS]

Originally Posted by Mach828

$1,200 for a "built" 3650 is way too cheap. That is probably just a freshened up stock equivalent.

What is their top of the line build?

Mine is rated for 700hp and it cost me $2,200.

I haven't called but this is the only 3650 they have posted on their site...

http://www.ddperformance.com/ya3-new...5-speed-01-04/

[LXS]

And this is the rebuild kit that they offer...

Http://www.ddperformance.com/tr-3650-5-speed/

[Mach828]

Ya, stock rebuild. You will destroy it. I broke stock 3650s like it was a game. Expect to pay just over $2k for a 3650 that will hold up to hard drivers.

[slojunk91]

Try 3650 Source, deal with Zak Harty. Just last week he quoted me $1460+shipping(14% new customer discount) for a nice package rated @650hp. That price is sending my trans to him(Ohio)for the rebuild. He offered use of his UPS account also($250 round trip). The package includes-

complete 3650 rebuild with 26 spline input shaft
new friction rings(1,3-4,5-R)
gorilla shift forks 1-2
sureshift billet fork 3-4
2nd synchronizer blocker rings
2nd gear with beveled cut engagement
synchronizer assembly 1-2
bronze shift forks 1-2,3-4
new stock shift fork pads 5&R
new seals
clutch pivot ball
insp. trans internals
labor

Look into it. It's the route I am going.He also recommended a Ram PG(not HD) & billet steel flywheel.

[Mach828]

^^ I'd see if he can get you the carbon fiber synchros .

[slojunk91]

Originally Posted by Mach828

^^ I'd see if he can get you the carbon fiber synchros .

I will ask about that sometime this week when I talk to him.

[03DSGGT]

Definitely talk to Zak. Im looking to get my 3650 rebuilt and want it beefed up. He and I talked back and forth and he seems pretty knowledgeable:

http://the3650source.com/

[LXS]

Sounds good to me! Thanks for the info!