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Old 11-07-2008, 05:55 PM   #126
tmhutch
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by kidordinn View Post
I'm having Steeda install their under-drive pulley because the original Ford harmonic dampener failed and is rubbing against the timing chain cover. This is on a 2003 Mach1 5-speeder with 39K miles, never raced. Ford quality for you.

Anyway, Steeda claims that they have not heard or read from any Steeda customer that OEM an oil pump on the Mach1 was affected by the replacement of the harmonic dampener with their own under-drive pulley. It's difficult to decide who is right, but at this point since the Mach is out of warranty, I might as well try this one. And if the oil pump fails, it'll be another crucial moment to ponder about Ford's quality and decide if I'll ever buy again their "quality" products.

Let me see if I have this straight. Your Ford harmonic balancer failed, resulting in a scratched up timing cover so the solution is to install a part known to inadequately control crankshaft harmonics. And when it causes your oil pump gears to fail and subsequently destroy your engine, it's going to be Fords fault?

Ford screws up enough on their own. They donít need to accept the responsibility for other manufacturers garbage too.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:06 PM   #127
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by tmhutch View Post
Let me see if I have this straight. Your Ford harmonic balancer failed, resulting in a scratched up timing cover so the solution is to install a part known to inadequately control crankshaft harmonics. And when it causes your oil pump gears to fail and subsequently destroy your engine, it's going to be Fords fault?

Ford screws up enough on their own. They donít need to accept the responsibility for other manufacturers garbage too.
This is a known problem on Ford OEM balancers .Since you have not seen one . .. The Steeda balancers are alot better than the stock ones !Ford will not pay anyway since the car is out of warranty !
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:17 PM   #128
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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This is a known problem on Ford OEM balancers .Since you have not seen one . .. The Steeda balancers are alot better than the stock ones !Ford will not pay anyway since the car is out of warranty !
Maybe my post wasnt clear. When the Ford balancer fails, it doesnt destroy the engine, the Steeda's do. Why would you replace a bad part with something even worse. And then blame Ford if the oil pump gears fail while using a substandard product? Why not use an ATI or a Fluidamper? Neither of which have had any association with failed oil pumps. Just doesnt make sense.

And I'm not sure what you are refering to when you say I "havent seen one". I've seen and used both Ford and Steeda balancers. The Steeda is a very nice looking piece. Just poorly engineered and executed.

As far as the Ford balancer failures. Most of them have been on the new Aluminator crate engine that was assembled using the incorrect damper/timing cover combination. Not an inherent flaw in the damper itself.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:30 PM   #129
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Actually, the Alluminator issue was due to the thrust bearing.
People need to stop treating a mod motor like a pushrod motor.
Just say NO to UDP's.
It's not worth the risk.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:30 PM   #130
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by kidordinn View Post
Anyway, Steeda claims that they have not heard or read from any Steeda customer that OEM an oil pump on the Mach1 was affected by the replacement of the harmonic dampener with their own under-drive pulley.
That's a lie right there, anyway. Steeda quit recommending their underdrive dampers for the Mach 1s after the rash of oil pump failures were plastered all over the Corral in 2003 or so. Their recommendation against using those pulleys on Machs even used to even be on their website.

I would have went with another stock damper, ATI, Innovator's West, or even a Fluidampr over the Steeda.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:43 PM   #131
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by birdman941 View Post
Actually, the Alluminator issue was due to the thrust bearing.
People need to stop treating a mod motor like a pushrod motor.
Just say NO to UDP's.
It's not worth the risk.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:45 PM   #132
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Maybe my post wasnt clear. When the Ford balancer fails, it doesnt destroy the engine, the Steeda's do. Why would you replace a bad part with something even worse. And then blame Ford if the oil pump gears fail while using a substandard product? Why not use an ATI or a Fluidamper? Neither of which have had any association with failed oil pumps. Just doesnt make sense.

And I'm not sure what you are refering to when you say I "havent seen one". I've seen and used both Ford and Steeda balancers. The Steeda is a very nice looking piece. Just poorly engineered and executed.

As far as the Ford balancer failures. Most of them have been on the new Aluminator crate engine that was assembled using the incorrect damper/timing cover combination. Not an inherent flaw in the damper itself.
Any balancer that comes apart has the chance to ruin the engine . Like Hyland said ..any new one installed wrong will fail too. As far as Ford is concerned ..on the Aluminator the engine was put together wrong by Ford nuff said. The stock ones have failed on GTs,Machs and Cobras some damaged engines like my friends Gt some did not. Made poorly is youre opinion... since Steeda is a partner with Ford i dont think so.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:02 PM   #133
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by rich1 View Post
Any balancer that comes apart has the chance to ruin the engine . Like Hyland said ..any new one installed wrong will fail too. As far as Ford is concerned ..on the Aluminator the engine was put together wrong by Ford nuff said. The stock ones have failed on GTs,Machs and Cobras some damaged engines like my friends Gt some did not. Made poorly is youre opinion... since Steeda is a partner with Ford i dont think so.
The little emoticons slapping me in the head and calling me crazy are cute but that's the nice thing about opinions. Everyone should be allowed to have one. But it's unfortunate when an opinion is incorrect and negatively affects others. Your opinion is that Steeda is fine. If you're wrong, engines fail and cost others. No sweat off your back, it's not your money.

My opinion is that it's prudent to be safe. If I'm wrong, nobody gets hurt. In light of all the evidence presented in this thread, why would anybody take the risk. If you want a safe underive damper, buy a Fluidamper. If you want the best, buy an ATI. It's a no brainer. Don't screw around.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:27 PM   #134
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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The little emoticons slapping me in the head and calling me crazy are cute but that's the nice thing about opinions. Everyone should be allowed to have one. But it's unfortunate when an opinion is incorrect and negatively affects others. Your opinion is that Steeda is fine. If you're wrong, engines fail and cost others. No sweat off your back, it's not your money.

My opinion is that it's prudent to be safe. If I'm wrong, nobody gets hurt. In light of all the evidence presented in this thread, why would anybody take the risk. If you want a safe underive damper, buy a Fluidamper. If you want the best, buy an ATI. It's a no brainer. Don't screw around.
Actually it is my money! I have been using Steeda for 2yrs now and on the other 4 Mustangs Ive owned .No Failures! I agree that ATI is good but Steeda and ASP were given out in the post i provided by Sean Hyland . So much to youre dismay it was not just my opinion ...unlike youres which provided no proof. I am sure that his advise is more valued than youres !Besides you got this opinion that was posted in 5-26-05 by PHP not to use them .PHP was the first ones to put Steedas on a Mach for a drag test in a mag in 03 !
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Last edited by rich1; 11-07-2008 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 11-08-2008, 12:25 PM   #135
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Any balancer that comes apart has the chance to ruin the engine . Like Hyland said ..any new one installed wrong will fail too.
Sean Hyland is no fan of small diameter underdrive dampers either.

From his book, "There also seems to be increased instances of oil-pump failure when some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced-diameter harmonic balancer provided. Steeda and ASP both make pulley sets that include a built-in harmonic balancer." (p. 22, How to Build Max Performance 4.6-liter Ford Engines)

He goes on to say, "The net of all this information is to use the '96-'01 Cobra balancer (F6ZZ-6312-AB) on all manual transmission, forged crank applications, and the newer '99-'03 GT balancer on the cast-crank, manual transmission applications. The '03 Mach 1 automatic balancer would be the best choice on a cast-crank, automatic-tranny application." (p.23)

So basically every major Modular engine builder agrees, small diameter underdrive harmonic dampers increase the likelihood of broken oil pumps gears in Modulars. Since these guys are the ones who personlly see hundreds and even thousands of these engines, they can see commonalities with certain failures.

I'll take their word...

Quote:
I agree that ATI is good but Steeda and ASP were given out in the post i provided by Sean Hyland .
Read the quote carefully, they are two examples of the small-diameter balancers he was just saying increased the likelihood of an oil pump failure. He wasn't giving Steeda and ASP the OK, rather exactly the opposite.
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:35 PM   #136
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

WOW!, what a hot topic here. I am running the Steeda underdrive pulley on my 5 speed Mach and have not had any issues with it yet but have only had it on for about 6 months but have made about 15 passes down the track with it. I am a little concerned now. Where can I buy the fluiddamper underdrive pulley for my Mach to replace the steeda? This post has me a little concerned as I don't have $7,000.00 to spend on a new motor. This pulley deal sound alot like the nitrous debate. Can it be used safely well in my book Nitrous is not worth the risk and this pulley deal sounds the same way.
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:53 AM   #137
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

March dampener/WP pulley, CobraR PS and Alt... running strong
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Old 08-15-2009, 05:50 PM   #138
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

can anyone tell me if the march UDP's are as bad for the cobras as they are for the mach 1, i have a set that i was going to sell to my buddy and didnt know if he would run into the same problems with the oil pump n stuff?
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Old 08-15-2009, 05:52 PM   #139
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Mines March, not sure why I said ATi in the post above.

MANY guys swear by March.
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Old 08-15-2009, 07:04 PM   #140
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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NOT many MOD MOTOR guys!
If you ever got off this site to other mod motor sites, you'd see they do.
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:51 PM   #141
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I've recommended the March Fluid dampener to numerous people and none have had any problems.

How mnay people have spun rod bearings becuase they beat on their car? How many engines have been damaged to bad or aggressive tunes? How many engines have been hurt by nitrous or too much boost? I bet the numbers of these incindents are far greater than those that have been damaged by a small diameter dampener.

Install one and keep the RPMs at a level that is safe and the engine will be fine.
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Old 08-15-2009, 09:28 PM   #142
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

You really need to get rid of the big @ss sig, geez.

No one can change physics and I'm not trying too, but I've seen no failures with this dampener and it's installed on a lot of Machs and Cobras. As for it's mass, it may have less but the fluid makes up for it. Also, the new Steeda and Moto Blue dampeners have a large amount of mass, equal to or more than a stock dampener so I would recommend them also.
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Old 08-15-2009, 10:11 PM   #143
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

March fluid damper here.

Used to use Steedas, but I like the March better.

No problems to date with modulars and ud's. (since 1999)

I spin stock motors past 7k, quite often.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:58 AM   #144
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Also, the new Steeda and Moto Blue dampeners have a large amount of mass, equal to or more than a stock dampener so I would recommend them also.
Dunno about the fluid filled units but the way Steeda and Moto Blue have distributed the mass they've added to their dampers is suspect. I'd give these new dampers a little more time before trusting one on my own vehicle and by all means we need to quit making excuses for their failures by comparing them to other negligent parts as if that somehow makes it OK.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:09 PM   #145
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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NAME ONE MOD MOTOR ENGINE BUILDER THAT LIKES THEM!
I'm on PLENTY of mustang and ford sites.
Besides, why do I NEED to be on other sites, I talk with engine builders every day.
Do you know that the first MACH1 that was blown up had March pulleys and it was at Paul's HP?
And how many others do you know of? hm?

With the fact that oil pumps have gone on stock engines, for all we know that pump was already on its way out. Nothing was ever shown that it was the pulley that actually caused it, Did they tear down the engine and inspect it BEFORE the pulley? I'm sure they didn't.

If March was actually the cause they would also have to pull the Cobra pulley due to there would be hundreds of Cobras blowing up from it.

I look around on SVTp, and I NEVER see people complaining about "omg my pully killed my car!" about 1/3 of the users there are running a pulley of some brand and in 5yrs I have NEVER seen a post on that site blaming an oil pump failure on a pulley. Hell look around here, there are many people here using them too, yet since I've been a member I've never seen a oil pump break and be proven its the pulleys fault. Same with my local mustang club, we have a Mach1, 99 Cobra, and 01 Cobra, none have issues due to the pulleys, and the Cobras are using Steeda brand (the new redesign), and I hve a March. 18,000 miles with no problem in my case.

Just because an engine builder doesn't use it, doesn't mean it's not a good product, it just means they might not be getting a discount or sponsorship on them.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:03 PM   #146
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Hmm . How old is this, I am not sure , but they are using March pullies and talk about in the first couple paragraphs about the balancing and dampning of the SOHC
http://www.mustangworld.com/ourpics/fcar/pull1.htm
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:47 PM   #147
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I have almost two years on my Steeda UDP's....
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:06 PM   #148
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

3 years and a daily driver.
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:27 PM   #149
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I just bought an ATI to put on my car after the A/C compressor grenaded recently. I'm hoping that the underdrive can make the new compressor last with the relatively high RPMs from my 3:90 gears and raised shift points. Up until my first stroker engine swap a couple of years ago, I ran an SLP underdrive balancer for 2 valve cars without incident.

Of course I have stated many times that I don't think automatic cars have ever been affected due to the torque converter acting as an auxilliary balancer on the rear of the crank. The lower stock redline probably doesn't hurt either.
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:29 PM   #150
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Just because an engine builder doesn't use it, doesn't mean it's not a good product, it just means they might not be getting a discount or sponsorship on them.
If you honestly want to understand this topic than you should take the time to read this thread. There is a lot of good information that will help you make a better informed decision. As to your point about engine builders, understand that it's not that they just dont use them, it's that every respected modular engine builder says NOT to use them. They advise AGAINST it. They say DONT do it. It has nothing to do with discounts or sponsorship. It is simply shared expertise coming from the people who know best.
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