Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

[tmhutch]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. So much better than all the talk through all of this discussion. So it looks like I should be fine, right? I have a cast crank, auto trans, and never shift over 6000 rpm. My factory fuel cutoff is in place at 6250 rpm.

Yep, you should be fine. I'm going to move that post to the end of the thread for better visibility.

[tmhutch]

I'm re-posting this at the end of the thread so people wont miss it.

To put things into perspective, I've been following this topic since 2001. I can plainly state that there has been oil pump failures related to Steeda and other small diameter dampers that are too numerous to count.

First, a brief explanation of what a damper does. The number one priority of the damper is to limit crankshaft deflection, or twist. Each time combustion takes place in the chamber it slams against the top of the piston with the force of a sledgehammer which than slams against the crank throw. This causes the crank to twist or flex a little bit. The further the piston is from the point of resistance (transmission input shaft), the more twist it will impart on the crank. So the front most piston in the engine will twist the crank more than any of the others. The weight of the damper provides resistance against this twisting force and is what prevents the crank from being twisted in two.

The secondary purpose of the damper and the focus of this post is "harmonics". Harmonics is what occurs after the first twist. When the crank twists against the force of the combustion, it then rebounds back the other direction, and then back the other way and so on until the back and forth motion slowly fades away. This creates destructive harmonics that resemble the vibration of a tuning fork.

Let's talk about why these harmonics are more destructive with Cobra’s and Machs and not SOHC Mustang GT’s, 5.0’s, Camaro’s and everything else that is not a high revving DOHC Ford (DOHC BMW's and Imports have also experienced pump failure with small dampers).

1. First are the fragile, powdered metal oil pump gears. They simply cannot take a lot of abuse.
   
2. Second is the fact that 4 camshafts and all the chains required to run them create a lot of harmonics in the crankshaft. That’s a problem.
   
3. Third is the steel crankshaft made by Kellog. It’s the kind of crank hot rodders dream of but it’s super rigid and does not absorb harmonics like a cast crank will (automatic Mach 1's have cast cranks).
   
4. Fourth is the internally balanced short block that is more susceptible to engine harmonics than an externally balanced setup.
   
5. Fifth is the manual transmission. Gear banging and no fluid filled torque converter.
   
6. Finally, the death blow for the powdered metal gears: High RPM. The DOHC in stock form performs best when shifted at the factory designated red line, 6800 RPM. Those are some pretty serious revolutions and there are a lot of harmonics created.

All these things combine to make the Ford DOHC oil pump gears uniquely susceptible to failure. As such, the oil pump gears can fail under a variety of conditions that increase crankshaft harmonics. Over revving, forced induction and yes, inferior dampers that do not adequately control harmonics.

Here is a who’s who of the nation’s top modular engine builders that recommend avoiding small size dampers like Steeda on DOHC Ford engines:

Boss 330 Racing. Al Pappito

Modular Performance. John and Mike Tymenski

Accufab Racing. John Mihovetz. NHRA AA/AT World Record Holder

Livernois Motorsports

Pauls High Performance

Sean Hyland Motorsports

VT Engines




Here is small sample of the things they’ve had to say about small diameter dampers:

"Do you rev your engine over 6500 rpm? If you do you should worry...The next time you blast through the gears might be your last"
Al Pappito

"We do not install small dampers on any DOHC engine builds. All our engines get Innovators West full size dampers"
Livernoise Motorsports

"There is alot of harmonic vibration on the front of mod. cranks. The small dia. dampers do not adequately control the vibration"
Al Pappito

"The net of all this information is to use the (stock) '96-'01 Cobra balancer (F6ZZ-6312-AB) on all manual transmission, forged crank applications"
Sean Hyland

"It appears that if you want your engine to live a happy life keep your stock vibration damper/pulleys"
Al Pappito

"Cheapo balancers just do not work with powdered metal gears"
J. Mihovetz

"Food for thought..I just rebuilt a '98 cobra it has spent the last five years as a road race car. The bone stock engine had never had a wrench on it, including the rusty stock damper sitting right where it was bolted in 1998. 20,000 mi at full throttle. This thing was totally worn out .guess what....The flats on the crank and the stock pump looked great.
In contrast...A slightly famous Factory stock cobra after a mid season NMRA teardown showed a problem. After 500 street miles and about 35 quarter mile passes the rotors had beat depressions about .040.'' deep into the drive flats where the pump contacts the crank. That engine was wearing a small dia. underdrive damper"
Al Pappito

"There also seems to be increased instances of oil-pump failure when some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced-diameter harmonic balancer"
Sean Hyland

"After building truckloads of modular engines a pattern has emerged. Most all oil pump failures involve underdrive pulleys"
Al Pappito

"If anyone will spend $5000+ to rebuild an engine, $400 for a damper should be one of the first things. I'm using an ATI"
VT Engines

So let’s review:

If you own a Ford DOHC engine built from 1996 forward, and you rev it over 6500 RPM, every major modular engine builder in the country agrees that it is foolish to run a small diameter damper.

In addition to improper design resulting in numerous engine failures, small diameter dampers have been shown on several occasions to be out of round showing excessive run out when measured with a dial indicator. This is not only poor design but poor manufacturing and quality control. This probably contributes to the vibration many have felt at higher RPM with aftermarket, under drive dampers.



Some guidelines established by the professionals who build these unique engines are as follows:

1. The stock damper with stock powdered metal gears is good to 7,000 RPM.
   
2. The stock damper with billet gears can operate to 7,400 RPM but is not advisable.
   
3. Anything over 7,200 RPM should be running billet gears and an ATI damper.
   
4. A small diameter damper shouldn’t be run in any combination over 6,500 RPM. Billet gears will hold up with a small damper but the harmonics beat up the crankshaft drive pretty good and eventually something will fail whether the pump, a camshaft gear or the crank trigger.

Finally, let’s address some of the arguments presented by under drive, small diameter damper proponents:



Argument 1: “Show me proof!”

Answer: Idiot.



Argument 2: “I’ve run a Steeda small damper aggressively for a long time and have had no problems”

Answer: That’s not impossible. Varying production tolerances will make some oil pump gears more durable than others. Most people don’t want to find out the hard way.



Argument 3: We risk engine damage any time we install an aftermarket performance part on our cars.

Answer: In some cases that may be true but for the most part it simply is not. H-beam rods, forged pistons, hardened oil pump gears, ATI damper, billet oil pump gears, intake and exhaust mods. The list goes on and on. Even things like nitrous and supercharging are relatively safe when applied properly. And the inherent risk in their use is a little more tempting when we’re talking 100+ horsepower gains VS 3 - 5 hp for an under drive damper.



Argument 4: I’ve seen oil pumps fail with stock dampers.

Answer: Sure, it happens. The oil pumps are a marginal design from the factory. Increasing RPM beyond the factory limited 6800 RPM or installing power adders (nitrous, blowers, turbo) are just a couple examples of things that can increase engine harmonics. That is not a reason to install an inferior product that further jeopardizes your engine.



Argument 5: Most oil pump failures can be traced to improper damper installation.

Answer: Not true. What that statement is basically saying is that all the professional engine builders listed above don’t know how to install a damper. I don’t have to point out how ridiculous that is. Besides, it’s one bolt (new) torqued properly. Not rocket science. As a side note TheBlkMach1 had his damper installed by Steeda at their facility. He experienced pump failure with no other contributing factors.



Argument 6: Oil pump failures only occur on race engines or engines that are “over revved”.

Answer: Depends on your definition of “over revved”. Al Pappito plainly states that a small damper engine should not be revved over 6500 RPM. That’s a LONG way from “over revving” a DOHC engine that the factory designed to run at 6800 RPM for hours on end.



Argument 7: Steedas website says they worked with Ford to achieve the proper dampening characteristics.

Answer: That is the standard damper statement they’ve always used. It is meaningless. Fords Technology Transfer Program is available to anyone wanting to build an aftermarket part for a Ford. It can be used to obtain dimensional information as well as many other parameters.



Argument 8: Steeda has a new damper that is as heavy as the stock unit.

Answer: Weight is only one of several factors involved in producing a properly designed damper. The way they’ve distributed a bunch of the weight way out in front does not instill confidence. It's pretty tough to throw caution to the wind and blindly trust this company just because they've covertly admitted to marketing an inferior piece by completely redesigning it and quietly offering it in place of the original unit. Try calling them to ask about it. They wont admit to a re-design. Liability. It only took them 10 years. They haven’t even bothered making any claims regarding improved ability to control harmonics, let alone admitting to a re-design. Guinea pig it for them? No thank you.



In the end it boils down to whether or not 5 hp is worth the risk. Especially when nearly equal performance gains can be had by installing Cobra R pulley’s on the alternator and power steering pump. Even more by adding an electric water pump.

Todd

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by tmhutch

Yep, you should be fine. I'm going to move that post to the end of the thread for better visibility.

It would be great if you posted that stuff at the beginning of this thread also. Great info! Maybe the moderator could help with this.

I have the book in front of me "How to build max perf. 4.6 liter Ford engines by Sean Hyland." On page 102 and 103 of the book he lists successful engine packages to get x amount of hp. He says to use Steeda 701-0001 pulleys on 96-01 Cobras with a manual trans! I would scan the pages but I don't have a working scanner right now. What gives? http://www.steeda.com/products/steed...ve_pulleys.php The 701-0001 is listed as the pulley kit for the '96-mid 01 Stang GTs. Weird!

[tmhutch]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

It would be great if you posted that stuff at the beginning of this thread also. Great info! Maybe the mod could help with this.

I have the book in front of me "How to build max perf. 4.6 liter Ford engines by Sean Hyland." On page 102 and 103 of the book he lists successful engine packages to get x amount of hp. He says to use Steeda 701-0001 pulleys on 96-01 Cobras with a manual trans! I would scan the pages but I don't have a working scanner right now. What gives?

Yes, I have that book too. You might also note that elsewhere in the book he cautions against using them. When he began writting that book people were still trying to figure out why these engines were blowing up. The information he provides does seem conflicting but if you talk to him today he would warn against using a small diameter damper.

[birdman941]

What about making the oil pump gears even more brittle by cryo treating them?
Imagine the total genius of using a cryo gear equipped pump along with UD pullies!
Maybe make a set out of glass!
What a great combination!

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by tmhutch

Yes, I have that book too. You might also note that elsewhere in the book he cautions against using them. When he began writting that book people were still trying to figure out why these engines were blowing up. The information he provides does seem conflicting but if you talk to him today he would warn against using a small diameter damper.

Where in there does he caution against them? My book was published in 2003, obviously a lot has been learned since then.

[tmhutch]

Originally Posted by birdman941

What about making the oil pump gears even more brittle by cryo treating them?
Imagine the total genius of using a cryo gear equipped pump along with UD pullies!
Maybe make a set out of glass!
What a great combination!

lol, no kidding.

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

Where in there does he caution against them? My book was published in 2003, obviously a lot has been learned since then.

Unfortunately you will find many versions and many technical errors in the Hyland books. Read the quote from the thread I referred you to. I cant remember which revision that came out of but it was one of the later ones. My 2007 revision had this to say: "We have seen many stock pumps shatter the original powdered-metal gears" He goes on to say that there is evidence pointing to a harmonic problem and that the failure is normally seen on engines not using the stock harmonic balancer. He also states that all modular engines should have the stock pump gears replaced with billet units. These will survive a small damper but not without beating the crap out of the drive flats on the crank.

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by tmhutch

He also states that all modular engines should have the stock pump gears replaced with billet units.

I'm sure that's a good idea but not an easy job! I just looked in my Haynes repair manual. If you don't drop the 2 pickup tube bolts, you can remove the timing chain cover, timing chains, chain guides, crankshaft sprockets, then the oil pump. If you drop a bolt it says you need to remove wiper arms, module, weatherstrip, plastic cowl cover, crank position sensor, remove oil dipstick, oil level sensor, drain oil, disconnect atf lines at radiator, remove the starter wire harness and ground strap, engine mount bolts, TRANSMISSION!, flywheel, driveplate, lift the engine, oil pan then get the bolt you dropped! Ouch! I think I'd take my chances with a blown motor first or just put the stock dampner back on.

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

I was stressing the KEY points of why the info YOU were supplying has NOTHING to do with this thread. You can INTERPRET what I type any **** way you want. I see no need to pussyfoot around common sense info, especially when this info has been out on this site and many others for years. IF you would have read this thread you would have known this.

Jeeez dude! Stand up like a man and admit you were wrong on a subject instead of attacking the messenger.

I told how my Mach went 22K miles with the aftermarket dampner with no problems. How is that nothing to do with this thread? I added the other cars too. At that point I didn't know they were not relevant. No need to pussyfoot. Just don't be a class A pric* aka yourself. I don't have time to read this long thread for hours. What was I wrong about besides how the 5.0 and 4.6 SOHC cars were not relevant? There I admit I'm wrong about that. Now let's see if you are man enough to admit you are a mean pric*. I'm not going to take your sh*& and abuse. I'll either give it back to you or ignore you.

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

Jeeeez!

Haven't you read a dang thing on the subject???

Mod Motor oil pumps are DIRECTLY driven by flats on the CRANK and are of VERY TIGHT TOLERANCES, therefor ANY HARMONICS not dampened will DESTROY the oil pump.

This cannot be said about the pushrod Ford engine.

Please only post relevant and FACTUAL info.

Jeeeez! is mean, asking if I read a dang thing is mean, smack is mean, use of large black and red lettering is mean like I'm too blind or stupid to read in normal text. Telling me what to post is belittling like you are God or something. Telling lies about me not posting factual info. What did I post that was not a fact? Capitalizing FACTUAL is mean. Where you not raised right? Maybe you need to go back to Mommy or Grammer school and learn some manners!

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

Show me what was mean in the post that you're crying about?

I'm not crying, just stating things. Trust me, I will lose no sleep over you.

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

I don't care who posts WRONG TECH on this board! I'm gonna call them out on it!

What wrong tech did I post? Calling them out on it is fine, just be nicer about it and you won't get into sh%^storms.

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by LOOKnGO

Dude!!! He writes big like that so he can see what he is saying

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

Holy crap!
You sure as hell read a LOT into WTF I typed!

I don't care who posts WRONG TECH on this board! I'm gonna call them out on it!

So what mods do you have on your car? I'm sure it takes a lot to get that heavy Marauder sled into low 11s!

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

Probably lying. That thing runs 15s right?

[2k4mach]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

What do push rod engines have to do with this discussion????????///

he must be related to screech, he knows everything

[bradmach]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

I told how my Mach went 22K miles with the aftermarket dampner with no problems. How is that nothing to do with this thread? I added the other cars too. At that point I didn't know they were not relevant. No need to pussyfoot. Just don't be a class A pric* aka yourself. I don't have time to read this long thread for hours. What was I wrong about besides how the 5.0 and 4.6 SOHC cars were not relevant? There I admit I'm wrong about that. Now let's see if you are man enough to admit you are a mean pric*. I'm not going to take your sh*& and abuse. I'll either give it back to you or ignore you.

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

Jeeeez! is mean, asking if I read a dang thing is mean, smack is mean, use of large black and red lettering is mean like I'm too blind or stupid to read in normal text. Telling me what to post is belittling like you are God or something. Telling lies about me not posting factual info. What did I post that was not a fact? Capitalizing FACTUAL is mean. Where you not raised right? Maybe you need to go back to Mommy or Grammer school and learn some manners!

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

I'm not crying, just stating things. Trust me, I will lose no sleep over you.

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

What wrong tech did I post? Calling them out on it is fine, just be nicer about it and you won't get into sh%^storms.

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

So what mods do you have on your car? I'm sure it takes a lot to get that heavy Marauder sled into low 11s!

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

Probably lying. That thing runs 15s right?

you sir are a tool.

heres some tampons for your bleeding pussy

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by bradmach

you sir are a tool.

heres some tampons for your bleeding pussy

[WhiteautoMach]

Since you won't tell us the mods on your Murderer, I'll have to guess. Stock curb weight is listed as 4165#, I'll assume you are 110# since you obviously have little man or little *&^% complex. It would take about 558 hp to trap that in that heavy of car. So you probably have bolt-ons and a 150 shot or bolt-ons and quite a bit of boost and of course slicks, gears, stall, etc. Or maybe it is all stock and runs 15s or you don't even have a car! Anybody ever seen pics of his ride and his mods?

[yellowmach69]

Originally Posted by whiteautomach

since you won't tell us the mods on your murderer, i'll have to guess. Stock curb weight is listed as 4165#, i'll assume you are 110# since you obviously have little man or little *&^% complex. It would take about 558 hp to trap that in that heavy of car. So you probably have bolt-ons and a 150 shot or bolt-ons and quite a bit of boost and of course slicks, gears, stall, etc. Or maybe it is all stock and runs 15s or you don't even have a car! Anybody ever seen pics of his ride and his mods?

[renegade]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

Since you won't tell us the mods on your Murderer, I'll have to guess. Stock curb weight is listed as 4165#, I'll assume you are 110# since you obviously have little man or little *&^% complex. It would take about 558 hp to trap that in that heavy of car. So you probably have bolt-ons and a 150 shot or bolt-ons and quite a bit of boost and of course slicks, gears, stall, etc. Or maybe it is all stock and runs 15s or you don't even have a car! Anybody ever seen pics of his ride and his mods?

LMFAO!!!!!!!! You obviously havent been on here very long bud, Bill has a nice MACH 1 while no it isnt the fastest in the world it run very well. But he isnt know for that, he is known for working at a very reputable shop and being a crew member for a badass drag racing team with the hottest driver :THUMBSUP: so just chill and have and stop sounding like an idiot

[Scott McClure]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

Since you won't tell us the mods on your Murderer, I'll have to guess. Stock curb weight is listed as 4165#, I'll assume you are 110# since you obviously have little man or little *&^% complex. It would take about 558 hp to trap that in that heavy of car. So you probably have bolt-ons and a 150 shot or bolt-ons and quite a bit of boost and of course slicks, gears, stall, etc. Or maybe it is all stock and runs 15s or you don't even have a car! Anybody ever seen pics of his ride and his mods?

Your making an a$$ of yourself. Just let it go.

[R-code17815]

4 years with Steeda UDP's and still going strong

[yellowmach69]

Originally Posted by R-code17815

4 years with Steeda UDP's and still going strong

I might try these , anyone got these they dont want to try?

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by renegade

and stop sounding like an idiot [/SIZE][/COLOR]

I don't care what you people think. Bill didn't post about his mods or what he drove, his fault. He wouldn't answer either. So I had to guess.