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View Poll Results: Ask a Police Officer Htread - Good Idea?
Yes, good idea 54 60.67%
No way...scrap it 2 2.25%
let's try it and see how it goes 24 26.97%
What do I care. Where is the Procharger thread? 9 10.11%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-07-2006, 08:05 PM   #426
Road Racin Mach
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMachU
What he said! Great answers MV.

As I explained (much) earlier in the thread, police officers train to stop a suspect's actions. We do not shoot to wound, we do not shoot to kill, we shoot to stop their aggressive acts towards another. We are guided by the reverence for human life. Sometimes it may mean that in order to stop a suspect from likking someone we must aim for the head. That will immediately stop a suspect's iminent actions. It may also mean the suspect will die from his wounds. I'm sorry that may happen, but that is the path the suspect chose.

Shooting for an arm or leg, as MV said, is impractical and dangerous for other, possibly innocent, people. Besides, have you ever seen a suspect hit in an arm or leg and continue their offense? I have. The best, most sure way of stopping a suspect is to aim for the center mass, AKA torso.


I hope this helps clear things up a bit.
Well I would have to say that makes perfect sence to me.
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Old 04-08-2006, 02:01 AM   #427
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

In addition to the legal reasons for not shooting to wound there are physical reasons as well. If you check out the statistics, most people, police officers included shoot very poorly in high stress situations. Take the guy who can stand on the line at the range putting bullets in the 10 ring all day long and then put him in a gunfight or physical confrontation where he believes his life is in danger and in most cases you will see a totally different outcome.

The biggest reasons for this are physical factors. When someone is put in a life threatening situation the body undergoes a lot of changes. Adrenaline dumps into the system and your heart rate starts to skyrocket even if you are not under heavy physical exertion at the time. Once the heart reaches about 150 beats per minute you start to lose fine motor skills i.e. being able to make slight adjustments in aim, or being able to gently squeeze the trigger instead of jerking it. By the time the heart starts to pass 180 beats per minute the changes get to be major. Smaller blood vessels in the extremeties contract and force blood to the center of the body in order to keep a person from bleeding to death quickly from a large wound. At this point fine motor skills are pretty much out the window. You also start to experience tunnel vision and auditory exclusion.....meaning you can hardly hear anything and all you can focus on is what is directly ahead of you. Once you get to this point, trying to hit anything other than center mass of a target is almost out of the question. Even that is extremely difficult which the statistics show.

About the only way to do anything about this is to try and train someone to shoot under very stressful situations to get them used to it. Most departments do not do a very good job at this. As long as they can get an officer to stand on a line and put enough rounds on paper to pass a test they are happy. Anything more than that to them is money wasted out of the budget. Other departments do try their best to give additional training and raise the stress levels but no matter what you do, it's pretty much impossible to make the training as realistic as a real life situation.
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:16 AM   #428
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Drag
In addition to the legal reasons for not shooting to wound there are physical reasons as well. If you check out the statistics, most people, police officers included shoot very poorly in high stress situations. Take the guy who can stand on the line at the range putting bullets in the 10 ring all day long and then put him in a gunfight or physical confrontation where he believes his life is in danger and in most cases you will see a totally different outcome.

The biggest reasons for this are physical factors. When someone is put in a life threatening situation the body undergoes a lot of changes. Adrenaline dumps into the system and your heart rate starts to skyrocket even if you are not under heavy physical exertion at the time. Once the heart reaches about 150 beats per minute you start to lose fine motor skills i.e. being able to make slight adjustments in aim, or being able to gently squeeze the trigger instead of jerking it. By the time the heart starts to pass 180 beats per minute the changes get to be major. Smaller blood vessels in the extremeties contract and force blood to the center of the body in order to keep a person from bleeding to death quickly from a large wound. At this point fine motor skills are pretty much out the window. You also start to experience tunnel vision and auditory exclusion.....meaning you can hardly hear anything and all you can focus on is what is directly ahead of you. Once you get to this point, trying to hit anything other than center mass of a target is almost out of the question. Even that is extremely difficult which the statistics show.

About the only way to do anything about this is to try and train someone to shoot under very stressful situations to get them used to it. Most departments do not do a very good job at this. As long as they can get an officer to stand on a line and put enough rounds on paper to pass a test they are happy. Anything more than that to them is money wasted out of the budget. Other departments do try their best to give additional training and raise the stress levels but no matter what you do, it's pretty much impossible to make the training as realistic as a real life situation.

Great job of explaining the stuff the general public does not know about.
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Old 04-08-2006, 03:30 PM   #429
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Road Racing Mach I probably was not clear when I was citing the law: (my bad)

Quote:
It is unlawful for an officer or anyone for that matter to shoot someone in the back who is running away, absent very specific circumstances (i.e. the perp poses a significant and real threat to the life of himself or another)

The above law applies to all 50 states via the Supreme Court Case: Tennessee v. Garner, 471 US 1 (1985).
Your response was : "That is why I say in the leg. Rather than the back"

What Tennessee v. Garner means is that if a perp's back is turned...i.e. he is running away or fleeing the scene an officer ( nor anyone else ) is allowed to shoot that person unless they pose a threat to the life of themselves or another at that moment.

The short version of the facts of that Supreme Court case were: call is put out for a bad guy who robbed a store. Bad guy is a young black male...cop who responds is and old fat cop...cop sees bad guy, cop does not feel like running nor can cop keep up with bad guy...bad guy attempts to climb a fence in order to escape cop is weary of the chase takes out his gun and shoots bad guy. Bad guy dies...case goes to court and the court says you can't shoot perps who are running away from you...
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Old 04-08-2006, 05:18 PM   #430
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by MACHrophage
Road Racing Mach I probably was not clear when I was citing the law: (my bad)



Your response was : "That is why I say in the leg. Rather than the back"

What Tennessee v. Garner means is that if a perp's back is turned...i.e. he is running away or fleeing the scene an officer ( nor anyone else ) is allowed to shoot that person unless they pose a threat to the life of themselves or another at that moment.

The short version of the facts of that Supreme Court case were: call is put out for a bad guy who robbed a store. Bad guy is a young black male...cop who responds is and old fat cop...cop sees bad guy, cop does not feel like running nor can cop keep up with bad guy...bad guy attempts to climb a fence in order to escape cop is weary of the chase takes out his gun and shoots bad guy. Bad guy dies...case goes to court and the court says you can't shoot perps who are running away from you...
Your short version was not accurate and the insults were not correct or required.

"Relevant Facts: At about 10:45 p.m. Officers were dispatched to answer a "prowler inside call." Upon arriving at the scene they saw a woman standing on her porch and gesturing toward the adjacent house. She told them she had heard glass breaking and that "they" or "someone" was breaking in next door. Officers heard a door slam and saw someone run across the backyard. The fleeing suspect, Garner, stopped at a chain link fence. With the aid of a flashlight cops saw no sign of a weapon, and, though not certain, was "reasonably sure" and "figured" that Garner was unarmed. While Garner was crouched at the base of the fence, police called out "police, halt" and took a few steps toward him. Garner then began to climb over the fence. Convinced that if Garner made it over the fence he would elude capture, cop shot him. The bullet hit Garner in the back of the head, and he died. Ten dollars and a purse taken from the house were found on his body."

There was never a robbery, never a foot chase or a fat cop.
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Old 04-09-2006, 12:51 AM   #431
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by MvCrash
Your short version was not accurate and the insults were not correct or required.

"Relevant Facts: At about 10:45 p.m. Officers were dispatched to answer a "prowler inside call." Upon arriving at the scene they saw a woman standing on her porch and gesturing toward the adjacent house. She told them she had heard glass breaking and that "they" or "someone" was breaking in next door. Officers heard a door slam and saw someone run across the backyard. The fleeing suspect, Garner, stopped at a chain link fence. With the aid of a flashlight cops saw no sign of a weapon, and, though not certain, was "reasonably sure" and "figured" that Garner was unarmed. While Garner was crouched at the base of the fence, police called out "police, halt" and took a few steps toward him. Garner then began to climb over the fence. Convinced that if Garner made it over the fence he would elude capture, cop shot him. The bullet hit Garner in the back of the head, and he died. Ten dollars and a purse taken from the house were found on his body."

There was never a robbery, never a foot chase or a fat cop.



Sounds like a justified shoot to me. First judgement off the top of my head without analyzing it is a cop should be able to shoot an adult running away from him after an order to halt for any reason. If a cop says stop you stop... or possibly forfeit your life... that oughtta generate a little respect for the law. Or even a little well deserved fear of authority. Mollycoddling criminals and being politically correct sure ain't doing much but breed disrespect for the law and it's officers.

Now problems will be, how does the officer know it is an adult? Is every officer trustworthy with this power? Does this open the door for legal executions on the street?
I've never met a bad officer in my life but I know they must exist ( see NY headlines today.. Mafia Cops) But as far as I know Wild Bill Hickock only shot 1 wrong/innocent person in his gunfights!

Still guess I'd like to try it for a while. Let cops enforce the laws and PC stuff be hanged! If you find dope in a search for something else charge 'em!
Let common sense rule as much as possible. I almost don't believe that there are illegal searches, if you find evidence then they are guilty, put them in jail. Period.

Flame away!
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Old 04-09-2006, 01:18 AM   #432
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

MvCrash I stand corrected...I have not read the case in years..was going from memory. The "holding" or rule of law that I cited was correct however.

No insult intended, I was just being glib. Sorry if I offended you or any other officer w/ the characterizations used....

Mustanger2 you have a pretty conservative view...The Constituion grants all people the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure...and any search must be made pursuant to a warrant or an specified exception to the requirement of a warrant.
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Old 04-09-2006, 01:29 AM   #433
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Yeah Machrophage I know but if in a legal search you find evidence or illegal substances they should never be allowed to throw that evidence out or not use it to prosecute. If a cop finds or sees illegal stuff ... guilty! I don't want anyone busting down doors to homes but once in anything found should be fair game.
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Old 04-09-2006, 01:48 AM   #434
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Stuff gets thrown out in court for a whole lot of reasons. The way the illegal stuff is found is critical...if it found lawfully then all good but if not then that bad guy gets a pass.
There can be errors in terms of policework, the prosecutor might not tender discovery in a timely manner ( there is stuff we are legally required to tell the defense within a certain time frame)...that all leads to bad guys getting a pass...


In a situation where a car is involved, the following is some of the of analysis:

1- the officer has to have a valid reason to stop the car... ( could be tinted windows, speeding, whatever...but it has to be valid stop)

2- the ofc. if he searches a vehicle he/she must have probable cause ( enough facts to conclude that crime is, has, or shortly will occur) ...this is called the Carroll execption to the warrant requirement. An example of this would be if the ofc. upon approaching the car smells MJ or sees the butt of a handgun...he/she can now search the entire vehicle including containers in the vehicle

This is Md law but it is pretty much universal...
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Old 04-09-2006, 02:55 AM   #435
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by MACHrophage
Stuff gets thrown out in court for a whole lot of reasons. The way the illegal stuff is found is critical...if it found lawfully then all good but if not then that bad guy gets a pass.
There can be errors in terms of policework, the prosecutor might not tender discovery in a timely manner ( there is stuff we are legally required to tell the defense within a certain time frame)...that all leads to bad guys getting a pass...


In a situation where a car is involved, the following is some of the of analysis:

1- the officer has to have a valid reason to stop the car... ( could be tinted windows, speeding, whatever...but it has to be valid stop)

2- the ofc. if he searches a vehicle he/she must have probable cause ( enough facts to conclude that crime is, has, or shortly will occur) ...this is called the Carroll execption to the warrant requirement. An example of this would be if the ofc. upon approaching the car smells MJ or sees the butt of a handgun...he/she can now search the entire vehicle including containers in the vehicle

This is Md law but it is pretty much universal...

I started to reply in detail but I think I was turning this thread into a political one. So I deleted my original answer... not what this fine thread is supposed to be... Carry on fellow Machers!
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Old 04-09-2006, 02:08 PM   #436
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by MACHrophage
MvCrash I stand corrected...I have not read the case in years..was going from memory. The "holding" or rule of law that I cited was correct however.

No insult intended, I was just being glib. Sorry if I offended you or any other officer w/ the characterizations used....

Mustanger2 you have a pretty conservative view...The Constituion grants all people the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure...and any search must be made pursuant to a warrant or an specified exception to the requirement of a warrant.
Being a "fat cop" the only part I was offended by was the "fat cop" part. Having said that, here is the point of the decision.
One cannot shoot at a fleeing felon unless there is a "continuing risk" to the public at large. IE: A person just committed a crime using a weapon. The officers cannot see the weapon but there are reports a weapon was used. The bad guy runs, and appears to be running in the direction of a grammar school and there is no way for the cop, fat or not, to prevent the bad guy from entering. Shoot in the back?
I'll leave that decision to you.
Oh, when I was in patrol, I was not fat!!!! :LAUGH:
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Old 04-10-2006, 12:08 AM   #437
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

MvCrash...I would "DTP" (decline to prosecute) an officer in the fact pattern you gave above if the ofc. had some reasonable and articulable basis for believing that the bad guy was violent and presented a current threat to the lives of the grammer school students.

I guess I would also need to know that the officer shooting in the direction of the grammer school and kids therein reasonably believed that at the time he shot his bullets ( which we all known don't have names on them) did not pose a serious risk to any bystanders in the area. I have scene situations where bad guy and ofc. unload their weapons towards each other and both his nothing but air...that is potentially a lot of dead bystanders.
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:38 PM   #438
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Great Thread!

Are there any radar detectors that really work? I have gotten 2 tickets within 6 months in the Mach. I don't drive it too crazy. I'm wanting this mostly for 4 lane driving in rural Ohio, speed limit 60, but very little traffic, I hate having to drive only 2-3 over when going to work 36 miles. From what I have been told, one more ticket and there goes my liscense, and I can't have that happen.
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:22 AM   #439
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasisontheright
Great Thread!

Are there any radar detectors that really work? I have gotten 2 tickets within 6 months in the Mach. I don't drive it too crazy. I'm wanting this mostly for 4 lane driving in rural Ohio, speed limit 60, but very little traffic, I hate having to drive only 2-3 over when going to work 36 miles. From what I have been told, one more ticket and there goes my liscense, and I can't have that happen.

Well I LOVE my Escort X50!! I detect radar up to 2.8 miles away, almost no false alarms, it has saved me more than once for sure! BUT... instant on POP Radar will still get you! I can detect it but it's too late... unless it happens to be scatter from him lighting up someone else.. You just have to be lucky and in your situation you don't have that option. Better cool it for a while ( just my 2 cents)

Many people like the Valentine One because of the arrows pointing to the source(s) Both are very good & do work but none are foolproof and that is what you need right now. Price is $300 + ... I paid $335 for my blue LED Escort X50...

The officers have all the advantage but I still feel naked without my Escort... if nothing else it helps me keep alert on long drives!
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:42 AM   #440
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasisontheright
Great Thread!

Are there any radar detectors that really work? I have gotten 2 tickets within 6 months in the Mach. I don't drive it too crazy. I'm wanting this mostly for 4 lane driving in rural Ohio, speed limit 60, but very little traffic, I hate having to drive only 2-3 over when going to work 36 miles. From what I have been told, one more ticket and there goes my liscense, and I can't have that happen.
Absolutely they work. Radar and lidar both.
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Old 04-22-2006, 08:26 PM   #441
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Radar detectors work if used properly.
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:26 AM   #442
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Radar detectors work for the person only if the officer running radar is running it wide open. when i run radar i put it on hold until i see my target then turn the hold off and get the target speed, and if they have a radar detector you will see the speed drop quickly and watch the front end of the vehicle dip. however here in virginia they are illegal so once you see the vehicle dip like that you pretty much know they have one. as far as using them on lidar, i have never seen them work. lidar is vehicle specific so once your locked on your pretty much cooked. thats why i like using lidar more.
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Old 05-28-2006, 06:28 AM   #443
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

I was in a wreck recently with my Mach. In the picture below you will see the final resting place of the vehicle. I was making a left turn when a vehicle I never saw hit me. It was a 1998 Isuzu Rodeo which weighs 3800 lbs. The investigating officer said that the Rodeo was probably only going 50 - 55 mph. However, I feel that they were going alot faster due to how far my vehicle was knocked (spun) around. The investigating officer also said that there was not really anyway to really tell because there were not any skid marks. I had a view of about 100 yards and didn't see a vehicle coming at all before I proceeded to make my left hand turn. I have been trying to find out the formula for to get a rough estimate on how fast the Rodeo was going. Is there anyway someone here can help me out. Also, below is a link to more pictures of the damage to the MACH.

Link to wreck pictures

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Old 05-28-2006, 10:50 AM   #444
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

GAMACH1: In order to determine the speed of the offending vehicle more information would be required. I am making an assumption here (***/u/me) that you were not moving or moving at a slow rate of speed at the time of the collision. If there were no pre-impact skid marks left on the roadway, you cam make the assumption that the offending vehicle lost all of his velocity by striking your car and then during his stop after the collision. You would need the following information to get a speed ESTIMATE on the striking vehicle.
1.Post impact speeds for both vehicles (obtained by calculations from either post-impact skids or post-impact roll to a stop or a combination of both.
2. Pre-Imapct angles of collision. If you place his car on the X-axis approaching and your car on the y-axis, you can calculate the pre impact angles of the crash.
3.Post-Impact angles of collision (calculated as above on a graph)
4. your Pre-impact speed.

Once you determine these facts to the best of your ability, you can use the 'Theory of the Conservation of Linear Momentum." If you would like the formula let me know.

Otherwise, you can take the opinion of someone who has investigated tons of wrecks. From looking at the damage in the pictures it does not appear that you were the victim of a 50-55 mph impact. Depending on how far from the wreck he stopped, I would say that you took at most a 20mph hit. That is not to say he was traveling at 20mph because if he was only doing 20mph when he hit you, he would have come to a stop(the energy of the 20mph would have been used to damage the cars). Try to find out how far from the impact he stopped and if he brought the car to a stop or it slid to a stop cause the tires locked from the crash. If you can, PM me and I can give you a very, VERY rough estimate.

This is all said with the understanding that I do not have nearly enough information. We usually spend many many hours at a crash scene and take hundreds of photos in order to do a crash reconstruction.

EDIT: VERY SORRY FOR YOUR CRASH.HOPE THERE WERE NO INJURIES AND EVERYONE IS OK.<----Most important
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:07 PM   #445
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

All you coppers out there, summer is here. Alcohol + heat = use of force, and a higher potential for injuries.

Wear your vests, even though it may be uncomfortable.

Put on sunscreen (those working daylight hours). My left arm is dark tan, and the right is whiter than a sheet (cop tan). Besides, with my 17 years on, I have already needed to have skin cancer lopped off my nose. Wear that sunscreen, and apply it often.

And remember, time is your friend. Don't rush into a situation. If it seems strange and that little red flag is up, call for a back up. Don't rush!!

Stay safe, folks!
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:37 PM   #446
streakn
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

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Alcohol + heat = use of force, and a higher potential for injuries.
Westminster is rockin this year my brother.
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Old 06-04-2006, 07:24 PM   #447
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

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Originally Posted by streakn
Westminster is rockin this year my brother.
So is the San Dimas area.....nuthin but chasin the radio so far. Jeeeeez, summer started early this year for us, huh?
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Old 06-05-2006, 02:41 AM   #448
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

We are dealing with the Samoan and Hispanic gangs really heavy this year. I was involved in 3 use of force incidents in 3 days. WTF people?
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Old 06-05-2006, 07:03 AM   #449
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMachU
And remember, time is your friend. Don't rush into a situation. If it seems strange and that little red flag is up, call for a back up. Don't rush!!
Stay safe, folks!
It just all boils down to those things. Very, Very good advice. matter of fact, never heard better for staying safe...........and making the end of the shift.

To all the Police......Be safe......Be well.........

Now for me, if I can just keep my office chair operating properly so I don't fall off and hurt myself during my shift.....I'll be fine!!
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Old 06-05-2006, 11:55 AM   #450
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Re: Ask A Police Officer

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Originally Posted by MvCrash
It just all boils down to those things. Very, Very good advice. matter of fact, never heard better for staying safe...........and making the end of the shift.

To all the Police......Be safe......Be well.........

Now for me, if I can just keep my office chair operating properly so I don't fall off and hurt myself during my shift.....I'll be fine!!
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