Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

[tmhutch]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

Great post Todd!
Thanks for taking the time to write that and assembling things that I've told numerous times here.

But if someone replies to the contrary, they'll say all you wrote is HEARSAY.

Originally Posted by na svt

Why is it that this subject gets everyone's blood pressure up?

Todd, Bill, Scott, we all could argue this point till we're blue in the face. Like any other mod, people are going to use it if it provide a cheap hp gain. If they want to take the risk, so be it, it's there money and their car.

So what about the pump gears that have failed on engines with stock dampeners? It's about 50/50 for those gears that I've seen fail and even then the number of failures are low, very low.

I've recommended the March Dampener for years and know of no one that experienced any engine damage because of them. However, when recommending them I always make it known that that of the "issues."

How many engines have been damaged by dampeners as compared to other causes, bad tunes, nitrous, superchargers, missed shifts, rod knocks due to various reasons, aggressive tunes, etc.? Most any mod carries a risk, this is just one of those risks that car owners must weigh.

As long as there are dynos there will be people willing to do anything to extract the last hp out of there combination.


Mod away people.

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

LMMFAO................I told ya Todd.

Bill, you know NA SVT wrote that silly post just so I can illustrate the copy and paste method without having to re-write everything. I'll give it a try and see how it works.

Originally Posted by na svt

So what about the pump gears that have failed on engines with stock dampeners? It's about 50/50 for those gears that I've seen fail and even then the number of failures are low, very low.

Please refer to "argument 4" in previous post:

Argument 4: I’ve seen oil pumps fail with stock dampers.

Answer: Sure, it happens. The oil pumps are a marginal design from the factory. Increasing RPM beyond the factory limited 6800 RPM or installing power adders (nitrous, blowers, turbo) are just a couple examples of things that can increase engine harmonics. That is not a reason to install an inferior product that further jeopardizes your engine.

Originally Posted by na svt

I've recommended the March Dampener for years and know of no one that experienced any engine damage because of them. However, when recommending them I always make it known that that of the "issues."

Please refer to "argument 2" in previous post:

Argument 2: “I’ve run a Steeda small damper aggressively for a long time and have had no problems”

Answer: That’s not impossible. Varying production tolerances will make some oil pump gears more durable than others. Most people don’t want to find out the hard way.

Originally Posted by na svt

How many engines have been damaged by dampeners as compared to other causes, bad tunes, nitrous, superchargers, missed shifts, rod knocks due to various reasons, aggressive tunes, etc.? Most any mod carries a risk, this is just one of those risks that car owners must weigh.

Please refer to "argument 3" in previous post:

Argument 3: We risk engine damage any time we install an aftermarket performance part on our cars.

Answer: In some cases that may be true but for the most part it simply is not. H-beam rods, forged pistons, hardened oil pump gears, ATI damper, billet oil pump gears, intake and exhaust mods and tunes. The list goes on and on. Even things like nitrous and supercharging are relatively safe when applied properly. And the inherent risk in their use is a little more tempting when we’re talking 100+ horsepower gains VS 3 - 5 hp for an under drive damper.


I'll just re-post the whole thing as it gets buried in the stack.

And Todd, it would be nice if you would stop grouping the fluid filled damper in with all other small dampers as if they are one in the same. Whether you realize it or not, that is how your posts are interpreted. It should be made clear it is different even if it is not reccomended.

[Stopsign32v]

Originally Posted by tmhutch

To put things into perspective, I've been following this topic since 2001. I can plainly state that there has been oil pump failures related to Steeda and other small diameter dampers that are too numerous to count.

Let's talk about why this happens with Cobra’s and Machs and not SOHC Mustang GT’s, 5.0’s, Camaro’s and everything else that is not a high revving DOHC Ford.

1. First are the fragile, powdered metal oil pump gears. They simply cannot take a lot of abuse.
   
2. Second is the fact that 4 camshafts and all the chains required to run them create a lot of harmonics in the crankshaft. That’s a problem.
   
3. Third is the steel crankshaft made by Kellog. It’s the kind of crank hot rodders dream of but it’s super rigid and does not absorb harmonics like a cast crank will.
   
4. Fourth is the internally balanced short block that is more susceptible to engine harmonics than an externally balanced setup.
   
5. Fifth is the manual transmission. Gear banging and no fluid filled torque converter.
   
6. Finally, the death blow for the powdered metal gears: High RPM. The DOHC in stock form performs best when shifted at the factory designated red line, 6800 RPM. Those are some pretty serious revolutions and there are a lot of harmonics created.

All these things combine to make the Ford DOHC oil pump gears uniquely susceptible to failure. As such, the oil pump gears can fail under a variety of conditions that increase crankshaft harmonics. Over revving, forced induction and yes, inferior dampers that do not adequately control harmonics.

Here is a who’s who of the nation’s top modular engine builders that recommend avoiding small size dampers like Steeda on DOHC Ford engines:

Boss 330 Racing. Al Pappito

Modular Performance. John and Mike Tymenski

Accufab Racing. John Mihovetz. NHRA AA/AT World Record Holder

Livernois Motorsports

Pauls High Performance

Sean Hyland Motorsports

VT Engines




Here is small sample of the things they’ve had to say about small diameter dampers:



































So let’s review:

If you own a Ford DOHC engine built from 1996 forward, and you rev it over 6500 RPM, every major modular engine builder in the country agrees that it is foolish to run a small diameter damper.

In addition to improper design resulting in numerous engine failures, small diameter dampers have been shown on several occasions to be out of round showing excessive run out when measured with a dial indicator. This is not only poor design but poor manufacturing and quality control. This probably contributes to the vibration many have felt at higher RPM with aftermarket, under drive dampers.



Some guidelines established by the professionals who build these unique engines are as follows:

1. The stock damper with stock powdered metal gears is good to 7,000 RPM.
   
2. The stock damper with billet gears can operate to 7,400 RPM but is not advisable.
   
3. Anything over 7,200 RPM should be running billet gears and an ATI damper.
   
4. A small diameter damper shouldn’t be run in any combination over 6,500 RPM. Billet gears will hold up with a small damper but the harmonics beat up the crankshaft drive pretty good and eventually something will fail whether the pump, a camshaft gear or the crank trigger.

Finally, let’s address some of the arguments presented by under drive, small diameter damper proponents:



Argument 1: “Show me proof!”

Answer: Idiot.



Argument 2: “I’ve run a Steeda small damper aggressively for a long time and have had no problems”

Answer: That’s not impossible. Varying production tolerances will make some oil pump gears more durable than others. Most people don’t want to find out the hard way.



Argument 3: We risk engine damage any time we install an aftermarket performance part on our cars.

Answer: In some cases that may be true but for the most part it simply is not. H-beam rods, forged pistons, hardened oil pump gears, ATI damper, billet oil pump gears, intake and exhaust mods. The list goes on and on. Even things like nitrous and supercharging are relatively safe when applied properly. And the inherent risk in their use is a little more tempting when we’re talking 100+ horsepower gains VS 3 - 5 hp for an under drive damper.



Argument 4: I’ve seen oil pumps fail with stock dampers.

Answer: Sure, it happens. The oil pumps are a marginal design from the factory. Increasing RPM beyond the factory limited 6800 RPM or installing power adders (nitrous, blowers, turbo) are just a couple examples of things that can increase engine harmonics. That is not a reason to install an inferior product that further jeopardizes your engine.



Argument 5: Most oil pump failures can be traced to improper damper installation.

Answer: Not true. What that statement is basically saying is that all the professional engine builders listed above don’t know how to install a damper. I don’t have to point out how ridiculous that is. Besides, it’s one bolt (new) torqued properly. Not rocket science. As a side note TheBlkMach1 had his damper installed by Steeda at their facility. He experienced pump failure with no other contributing factors.



Argument 6: Oil pump failures only occur on race engines or engines that are “over revved”.

Answer: Depends on your definition of “over revved”. Al Pappito plainly states that a small damper engine should not be revved over 6500 RPM. That’s a LONG way from “over revving” a DOHC engine that the factory designed to run at 6800 RPM for hours on end.



Argument 7: Steedas website says they worked with Ford to achieve the proper dampening characteristics.

Answer: That is the standard damper statement they’ve always used. It is meaningless. Fords Technology Transfer Program is available to anyone wanting to build an aftermarket part for a Ford. It can be used to obtain dimensional information as well as many other parameters.



Argument 8: Steeda has a new damper that is as heavy as the stock unit.

Answer: Weight is only one of several factors involved in producing a properly designed damper. The way they’ve distributed a bunch of the weight way out in front does not instill confidence. It's pretty tough to throw caution to the wind and blindly trust this company just because they've covertly admitted to marketing an inferior piece by completely redesigning it and quietly offering it in place of the original unit. Try calling them to ask about it. They wont admit to a re-design. Liability. It only took them 10 years. They haven’t even bothered making any claims regarding improved ability to control harmonics, let alone admitting to a re-design. Guinea pig it for them? No thank you.



In the end it boils down to whether or not 5 hp is worth the risk. Especially when nearly equal performance gains can be had by installing Cobra R pulley’s on the alternator and power steering pump. Even more by adding an electric water pump.

Todd

Theres some good information!

[UIN2IT]

CobraR
$49 Alternator Pulley = http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCH-116/
$79 Power Steering pump Pulley = http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCH-640/

Anyone figured out the safe way to ensure the EWP warning light works when it goes out!?

[UIN2IT]

For those running the CobraR Alt & PS pulley:
do i have to get a shorter belt?
what size?

[tmhutch]

1) Remove and measure your current belt with stock damper/pulley's.

2) Wrap a string around the damper and pulleys, leaving the tensioner in the relaxed position. Note the difference in inches between the string and your stock belt.

3) Install new pulleys, wrap string and get measurement. Subtract amount wrote down from step two and that is the new belt length you need.

[UIN2IT]

Still debating the CobraR Alt & PS pulley's...
What kinda gains will I see from them!?
You think it is worth the Cost?
How hard is install?

[Stopsign32v]

Originally Posted by UIN2IT

Still debating the CobraR Alt & PS pulley's...
What kinda gains will I see from them!?
You think it is worth the Cost?
How hard is install?

You would probably see no gains at all.

[R-code17815]

OMG, this thread is still going???

This is just people not able to make a "small" decision for themselves....and/or some people just love to argue no matter what.

BOTTOM LINE....

If your spooked, or have second thoughts about it, Don't run them!!!!
99% of the time it's only gonna net ya under 10hp anyways. I don't think 10hp is even gonna get you half a 10th in the quater.

Yes, some of us have had them on for years with no issues but, If your not as confident as some of us, JUST DON"T BUY THEM...


Sorry to be prick but how many of these threads are we gonna have over the years????? The results never change...the arguments never change.

[tmhutch]

I believe he's talking about the pullies, not the balancer. Accessory pullies dont have any issues that would cause concern other than the alternator not charging until the engine reaches 1800'ish RPM.

The alt and PS pullies will probably net you about 3 - 5 horsepower. For some people that can be substantial. From a cost per dollar standpoint it is right in line or better than most other mods. At a certain point in the quest for more horsepower it becomes more about many small improvements.

[Stopsign32v]

Originally Posted by R-code17815

OMG, this thread is still going???

This is just people not able to make a "small" decision for themselves....and/or some people just love to argue no matter what.

BOTTOM LINE....

If your spooked, or have second thoughts about it, Don't run them!!!!
99% of the time it's only gonna net ya under 10hp anyways. I don't think 10hp is even gonna get you half a 10th in the quater.

Yes, some of us have had them on for years with no issues but, If your not as confident as some of us, JUST DON"T BUY THEM...


Sorry to be prick but how many of these threads are we gonna have over the years????? The results never change...the arguments never change.

So why did you both with wasting your time typing all of that? If there have been quite a few threads about this then surely anything you say has been said before. So why are you wasting your time?

[Black Widow]

Thanks for clearing this up I was going to buy them but now forget it. 15 HP is not worth the headache.

[WhiteautoMach]

Originally Posted by Black Widow

Thanks for clearing this up I was going to buy them but now forget it. 15 HP is not worth the headache.

More like 3-6 hp.

[rich1]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

More like 3-6 hp.

Mine were installed and Dynoed the same day 10hp and 12tq been on 2 yrs now BUT the rev limiter is set to 6,200 and an Auto dont miss shifts and using a cast crank !

[na svt]

Originally Posted by WhiteautoMach

More like 3-6 hp.

I got 12 from from the March fluid dampener.

[WhiteautoMach]

Mine didn't seem to help much, didn't dyno them though.

[Phil]

What spark plugs can I run with underdrive pulleys???

[04machwon22]

off topic....

has anyone had any trouble with udp recently.... i mean that are sfi approved steeda is anyway

[PCPRO]

Originally Posted by 04machwon22

off topic....

has anyone had any trouble with udp recently.... i mean that are sfi approved steeda is anyway

I'm running the Steeda balancer, Steeda W/P pulley, Cobra R Alt. pulley, and Cobra R P/S pulley without any problems whatsoever.

[ponygt65]

Originally Posted by PCPRO

I'm running the Steeda balancer, Steeda W/P pulley, Cobra R Alt. pulley, and Cobra R P/S pulley without any problems whatsoever.

I never understood that. No offense honest, because I've always enjoyed your feedback, but how are you supposed to knwo if you have problems? There's no way to really tell. Unless you are pulling the gears and checking them out every so often.

I guess going through your old oil with a fine tooth comb upon oil changes? Never thought of that one?

[PCPRO]

Originally Posted by ponygt65

I never understood that. No offense honest, because I've always enjoyed your feedback, but how are you supposed to knwo if you have problems? There's no way to really tell. Unless you are pulling the gears and checking them out every so often.

I guess going through your old oil with a fine tooth comb upon oil changes? Never thought of that one?

You're right, of course I don't pull the oil pump every so often and check the gears on it. Let me rephrase; my pump hasn't failed since running the Steeda balancer.
I was worried that running the underdrive Steeda damper in combination with the Cobra-R alternator pulley would cause battery charging probems, but none whatsoever.
In Sean Hyland's book, he of course reccomends staying away from underdrive pulleys, but then in the back of the book he has a series of engine recipes for different horsepower levels. Every one of these recipes includes the Steeda damper....what kind of sense does that make?...lol.

[ModularSpeed]

I have a March FluidDamper for sale.....

[nelos04]

First of all sorry for adding onto to this tread, but I haven't seen this yet. How would a lighter flywheel affect engine with UDP's and/or without them?? just curious.

[PCPRO]

No problems here

[nelos04]

alum fly what's the weight on that thing? did you notice any difference on the torque loss?

[tmhutch]

Originally Posted by nelos04

First of all sorry for adding onto to this tread, but I haven't seen this yet. How would a lighter flywheel affect engine with UDP's and/or without them?? just curious.

Lighter flywheel absorbs fewer crankshaft harmonics.