Twin Screw Change Out

[OSUALUM78]

On Kenne Bell site, selection of superchargers, then selection of Cobra/Mach 1 99-01, the initial image shows a supercharger and above it says:
Cobra/Mach 1
99-01

2.1, 2.6 Kits
Non Intercooled
Intercooled
400-605 RWHP
470-711 EHP

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/S...%20%281%29.htm

But when you click on it to get more specifics, it only talks about the 2.1L

Also, within the Cobra/Mach 1 page:

"KENNE BELL 2.1L 13-21 psi 8 Rib System"

and the below as well (I bolded the text to highlight the part I may be confused about (probably the case) or that you may be confused about, or not knowledgeable about)(but again, no reference on the page anywhere about the 2.6H):


"Same power potential as the '03-'04 Cobra with the Kenne Bell kit. 9 psi about max on pump gas with stock rods & pistons. This kit will produce 462HP at 9 psi and 449HP at 7.5 psi.Kit includes necessary fuel system and inlet upgrades (Kenne Bell Cool Air Kit, BOOST-A-PUMP™, 90mm Meter, SWITCH CHIP®, 42lb Injectors and Cobra Inlet Tube). Max boost for the 2.1L is 18 psi, but Cobra/Manley low compression pistons and rods are necessary for boost above 9 psi. '03 Cobra intercooler, heat exchanger, fill tank pump, hoses, fittings, adaptors and all hardware is included."

[OSUALUM78]

To Archie, regarding the "Dragon big oval throttle body ported by POSI ":

I read 50/50 good/bad on the Dragon from others on forums like svtperformance. Many do go with the Dragon though.

here's why I picked the Billetflow:

On the Billetflow, I read all good (except the higher cost than say an Accufab), specifically (from what I've read from others on forums like svtperformance, plus the quote below from their site is a reassuring claim. If it isn't true, then it's false advertising):

"We are the ONLY manufacturer to use proper cam geometry on an oval throttle body for proper pedal height and feel. We are the ONLY manufacturer to use proper cruise control button location for trouble free cruise control use. There is no need to worry about blade screws coming loose and going through your supercharger and destroying it as we crimp the retention screws just like OEM... can the others say that?"

To me being the "only" vs. "the best" are different claims. In the realm of monos, I have read by many, that the cruise control not working at all or sticking is a problematic symptom of the mono style TB. If they are the "only" mono TB that resolves this problem, doesn't it make it the "best" by default? But if they just stated what most parts companies state (Something like: "We are the best throttle body on the market" or "We are the best supercharger on the market") that holds no weight in comparison in my mind.

Is my logic correct? I have no idea.


My first cause for concern would be that it (any part for that matter) works right, and secondly, the part(s) helps in someway. Because if it doesn't work right, then why have it; and if it works right but doesn't help in any capacity, then why have it?

http://www.billetflow.com/2003SVTCobra.htm

http://www.billetflow.com/new%20images/cobrablack1.jpg

with plenum
http://www.billetflow.com/new%20images/cobraclear2.jpg

[OSUALUM78]

What about adjusting the cam timing on the FRPP Aluminator longblock before I start on installing anything on it and before I drop it in?

I read an old MMFF article (Dec 2006 issue, http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...all/index.html) on a KB add on to an 96 Cobra 4.6 4V, and they talk about retarding the Comp cams in that motor....

and then in another article on another page in that issue (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...ing/index.html) they talk about cam timing on the mod motors, and how the 4V's are prone to coming out of the factory off the prescribed settings, and one should do a compression test between the two banks, etc.

So, does it make sense to do a compression test and/or retard the FRPP Aluminator cam timing?

[TRMach1]

Originally Posted by OSUALUM78

What about adjusting the cam timing on the FRPP Aluminator longblock before I start on installing anything on it and before I drop it in?

I read an old MMFF article (Dec 2006 issue, http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...all/index.html) on a KB add on to an 96 Cobra 4.6 4V, and they talk about retarding the Comp cams in that motor....

and then in another article on another page in that issue (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...ing/index.html) they talk about cam timing on the mod motors, and how the 4V's are prone to coming out of the factory off the prescribed settings, and one should do a compression test between the two banks, etc.

So, does it make sense to do a compression test and/or retard the FRPP Aluminator cam timing?

The Aluminator motor is just fine the way it ships, don't go messing with it! Think of it as an all-aluminum 03/04 Cobra motor, because that's just what it is. Don't make comparisons between it and a '96 model 4-valve.

Scott mentioned that the Aluminator only comes in 8.5:1 compression, but that's not exactly true. There is a 10.0:1 compression version, but I don't know of anyone who has put a twin screw blower on one of those.

The 8.5cr version is marketed to be a direct replacement for an 03/04 Cobra, and as such it only comes with the Cobra front timing/accessory cover. In order to mount a KB 2.1 to it, you would need to switch your stock Mach 1 timing cover over to the Aluminator, along with your stock pulley's and any accessories that you might be keeping, like the alternator, and water pump.

I'd like to know if you have a shop lined up to do this build for you, and if you do, have you asked them what they might recommend for additional supporting parts and hardware to get you where you want to be?

[OSUALUM78]

See below in bold. Thanks again and keep it coming!

Originally Posted by TRMach1

The Aluminator motor is just fine the way it ships, don't go messing with it! Think of it as an all-aluminum 03/04 Cobra motor, because that's just what it is. Don't make comparisons between it and a '96 model 4-valve. Okay

Scott mentioned that the Aluminator only comes in 8.5:1 compression, but that's not exactly true. There is a 10.0:1 compression version, but I don't know of anyone who has put a twin screw blower on one of those. I know. I considered doing a N/A build off the 10:1, but it got almost as costly and would have peaked at 450RWHP, hence my plan to go the S/C route. I've always read and understood that if you go a higher compression like the 10:1, you can't boost at a high PSI like the 8:5 lower compression longblock, and hence lower HP/TQ numbers?

The 8.5cr version is marketed to be a direct replacement for an 03/04 Cobra, and as such it only comes with the Cobra front timing/accessory cover. In order to mount a KB 2.1 to it, you would need to switch your stock Mach 1 timing cover over to the Aluminator, along with your stock pulley's and any accessories that you might be keeping, like the alternator, and water pump. I have read that, and isn't there some trick on the timing cover bolt matching between the Mach timing cover and mating it to the 8:5 compression engine? I plan on keeping all accessories. A/C, alternator, water pump, etc. Now, if I re-use my Mach water pump or go with a Mezeire, that is still under debate in my mind. What about ECU harness compatibility with the Mach and the FRPP 8:5 longblock like here: http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/...+throttle+body?

I'd like to know if you have a shop lined up to do this build for you, and if you do, have you asked them what they might recommend for additional supporting parts and hardware to get you where you want to be? Yes, sort of. A shop/ a local guy by the name of Greg. He is not a shop owner/engine tuner/installer full time. No, I haven't asked about supporting parts and hardware. My lacking element is, a bunch of guys in my local club (of which Greg is a member) are going to help me for free or cheap on this project. The downside is the majority of them own S197's. There is only a few that have New Edge's and I am one of two Machs in the club. The other being an owner that is still on the OEM 10:1 longblock. One of the other New Edgers owns a Termi, but hasn't had to deal with fuel issues, as we know it is way easier (and cheaper) to swap an Eaton for a Whipple or KB on the Termi. I know Greg quoted me $1000 for install of engine swap and as many dyno runs to tune it with SCT software with my XCal3 (this was before the add of supercharger and tranny swap. He is going to drop the K member and engine and tranny and swap it that way. So the price may go up with add of tranny etc., but still cheap install cost huh?) Greg is also an authorized Ford distributor, so I am getting any FRPP part(s) at his cost (same deals as Birdman and ITLRUN on here). I witnessed the club (mainly two guys, none of which were Greg, but Greg provided the base tune. But these others will be helping me on my build (gauges, supercharger, drop fuel tank, etc.)) do a cam swap on an 06 Shelby GT last Sat. It took two guys 6 hours total. My main friend helping is the owner of the Shelby GT. He also used to work on aircraft engines full time until he decided to go back to school. He is the one who mathed out the injector sizing for me I posted earlier.

[OSUALUM78]

Tomorrow, I am going to call KB, and get pricing for:

2.6H supercharger satin finish, Mach 1 kit for shaker bracket, intercooler for Mach/Cobra engine, heat exchanger, Boost-A-Pump (not sure which amp one I would need), 8 rib system with 7.5" crank pulley, cool air kit, 90mm MAF, Boost-A-Spark, new harnesses for relocation of knock sensors, water inlet tube and fittings, 2 belts (one as a backup, just in case running one breaks), 160 degree thermostat, pulley wrench, the two pulleys to get me around 550 at the wheels and to get me around the max HP the smallest pulley for the 2.6H with 8 rib system can go, any plumbing or wiring I would need from them, and a base tune for the knock sensor re-calibration and such (even though I am going to have it tuned by my guy).

Basically the Mach 1 intercooled kit, but with a 2.6H, add in 8 rib with 7.5" crank pulley, add in cool air kit with 90mm MAF, add in extras I want; leave out/don't add their: injectors, throttle body, fuel pump, and gauges.

That is assuming their S/C can work with the Billetflow mono TB and plenum without issue



Unless someone else can say otherwise? Like you don't need to waste money on their "chip" tune for re-calibration of the knock sensors or for the supercharger add itself (as in any half a$$sed competent tuner can do that for cheaper), or the Boost-A-Pump in going with Archie's fuel pump/regulator suggestion, or you don't need the Boost-A-Spark, etc.


Am I on the right track?

[ASH302]

on the boost a pump do a 40amp

ASh

[ASH302]

make sure you get a intercooler, i'm sure already said but i wanted to hit on it again, or what you could do is get a nice aftermarket one that is alittle better than stock, just a thought

ASh

[TRMach1]

I'm at work and can't go into alot of details right now, but you can't use the 2.6H blower on a Mach 1 kit! The KB website is kind of confusing because they lump the two together, and can give the impression you can use either the 2.1 or 2.6, but that isn't the case! The blower kit you want to order is this one:

** TB1000-MACH+ KIT 6399.00 16-20 PSI KIT W/AC (MACH 1) INTERCOOLED INCLUDES BOOST-A-PUMP, 2.1L
(Recommend '03 Cobra style rods & pistons. 8 rib system required for 650-700+HP. Use 60lb injectors and Big Oval Throttle Body)

This is basically a "tuner kit" for the Mach 1. This is the same one that I have. We told KB that we were going to run at 16psi, and they ship the kit with the pulley that matches that. In my case, they screwed up the first time around, and sent the wrong pulley, but they exchanged it for the proper one overnight.

[OSUALUM78]

Originally Posted by TRMach1

I'm at work and can't go into alot of details right now, but you can't use the 2.6H blower on a Mach 1 kit! The KB website is kind of confusing because they lump the two together, and can give the impression you can use either the 2.1 or 2.6, but that isn't the case! The blower kit you want to order is this one:

** TB1000-MACH+ KIT 6399.00 16-20 PSI KIT W/AC (MACH 1) INTERCOOLED INCLUDES BOOST-A-PUMP, 2.1L
(Recommend '03 Cobra style rods & pistons. 8 rib system required for 650-700+HP. Use 60lb injectors and Big Oval Throttle Body)

This is basically a "tuner kit" for the Mach 1. This is the same one that I have. We told KB that we were going to run at 16psi, and they ship the kit with the pulley that matches that. In my case, they screwed up the first time around, and sent the wrong pulley, but they exchanged it for the proper one overnight.

When you get a chance (I'm at work too):

Yes it is confusing.

I'm not disagreeing with you on being able to run the 2.6H on the Mach. You've got the experience, I don't. My questions is why not (or run the 2.8H)? I mean, I will have a Terminator fully forged engine....they can supply an 03 Cobra intercooler, heat exchanger, etc.

Is it have to do with the shaker mounting bracket?

[TRMach1]

Originally Posted by OSUALUM78

When you get a chance (I'm at work too):

Yes it is confusing.

I'm not disagreeing with you on being able to run the 2.6H on the Mach. You've got the experience, I don't. My questions is why not (or run the 2.8H)? I mean, I will have a Terminator fully forged engine....they can supply an 03 Cobra intercooler, heat exchanger, etc.

Is it have to do with the shaker mounting bracket?

The short answer is, the blowers are physically different! Look at the front snout (where the blower pulley is), and on the Mach 1 2.1 blower, it's short and stubby, so that the pulley aligns with the crankshaft pulley and all the other pulleys on the front of the engine.

Look at the snout on an 03/04 Cobra stock Eaton, Whipple, or the bigger Kenne Bells, and it is much longer! This is because the Cobra uses a two belt system. One belt just for the supercharger, one belt for all the other accessories.

The crankshaft pulley on the Cobra is really like two pulleys together, the inner one, closest to the engine, is for the belt that runs the accessories, the outer one is for the belt that runs the supercharger, and this is why the snout has to be longer. The Mach 1 kit is a single belt system that resembles the stock serpentine belt setup. The physical size of the blowers is different too. The 2.1 has a lower profile, while the 2.6 on up, have a high profile (taller), so fitting them underneath the shaker scoop is really difficult.

[OSUALUM78]

Originally Posted by TRMach1

The short answer is, the blowers are physically different! Look at the front snout (where the blower pulley is), and on the Mach 1 2.1 blower, it's short and stubby, so that the pulley aligns with the crankshaft pulley and all the other pulleys on the front of the engine.

Look at the snout on an 03/04 Cobra stock Eaton, Whipple, or the bigger Kenne Bells, and it is much longer! This is because the Cobra uses a two belt system. One belt just for the supercharger, one belt for all the other accessories.

The crankshaft pulley on the Cobra is really like two pulleys together, the inner one, closest to the engine, is for the belt that runs the accessories, the outer one is for the belt that runs the supercharger, and this is why the snout has to be longer. The Mach 1 kit is a single belt system that resembles the stock serpentine belt setup. The physical size of the blowers is different too. The 2.1 has a lower profile, while the 2.6 on up, have a high profile (taller), so fitting them underneath the shaker scoop is really difficult.

Okay, I'm with you now. Me looking at pics online would do me no good. Physically seeing them would be better... but I understand what you are saying, and will have to agree with it, again since you have first hand experience with this, and I have no experience with it.

So based on your text, if a larger S/C could fit underneath the hood (snout length and height), could I get the 'dual' crank pulley from a Cobra and 2 belts, and then use a KB 2.6H or KB 2.8H or Whipple?

So in a nutshell, if the above idea won't work, either because I can't put on a 'dual' crank Cobra pulley and run a 2 belt system, or the S/C just plain won't fit because of the shaker or snout length, if I want to go the easiest route, as in a kit, I am stuck with the KB 2.1L Mach kit and what power that can make?

[machgsxr]

Have you even bothered to call KB and ask them?

[OSUALUM78]

I just called KB. Kudos to TRMach1 on being right on the money!

The short of it, with KB is I go Mach 1 kit 2.1L or go somewhere else to make the power I want. They don't 'upgrade to a bigger S/C, nor could I buy the Mach 1 kit, sell the 2.1L to someone, and buy a 2.6H or 2.8H from them, as they don't sell just the S/C itself. Their S/C core pricing listed in the PDF file is for replacement only if you send in your old core that cannot be fixed.

But they did refer me to Tim, formerly of MPH, now of American/Modern Muscle out of Illinois, that is supposedly best friends with the owner of KB, Jim. Apparently Tim is the only one outside of KB authorized to sell KB parts due to his relationship with Jim. Jim lets Tim do the custom setups of this nature. KB (it sounded like as in Jim) doesn't want to take the time , money, or manpower to get into custom applications of this degree.

I will know more once I talk to Tim again. He said he had to research some things like the timing cover and get back to me.

[machgsxr]

Originally Posted by OSUALUM78

I just called KB. Kudos to TRMach1 on being right on the money!

The short of it, with KB is I go Mach 1 kit 2.1L or go somewhere else to make the power I want. They don't 'upgrade to a bigger S/C, nor could I buy the Mach 1 kit, sell the 2.1L to someone, and buy a 2.6H or 2.8H from them, as they don't sell just the S/C itself. Their S/C core pricing listed in the PDF file is for replacement only if you send in your old core that cannot be fixed.

But they did refer me to Tim, formerly of MPH, now of American/Modern Muscle out of Illinois, that is supposedly best friends with the owner of KB, Jim. Apparently Tim is the only one outside of KB authorized to sell KB parts due to his relationship with Jim. Jim lets Tim do the custom setups of this nature. KB (it sounded like as in Jim) doesn't want to take the time , money, or manpower to get into custom applications of this degree.

I will know more once I talk to Tim again. He said he had to research some things like the timing cover and get back to me.

Eaton swap is looking to be your answer more and more so you could upgrade to a bigger KB or whipple unit like you want.

It runs the 2 belt setup with an 8 rib on the supercharger... all aftermarket blowers for the 03/04 cobra setup are BOLT-ONS to the eaton swap setup.

[04MACH!DSG]

^ agree

[OSUALUM78]

Originally Posted by machgsxr

Eaton swap is looking to be your answer more and more so you could upgrade to a bigger KB or whipple unit like you want.

It runs the 2 belt setup with an 8 rib on the supercharger... all aftermarket blowers for the 03/04 cobra setup are BOLT-ONS to the eaton swap setup.

Yup to get more power than the 2.1L can put out. The guy at KB told me I could easily get around 500 to the wheels with the 2.1L, but above that would be pushing it.
I wonder why their site has "Max of 750HP" all over the 99/01 Cobra / Mach 1 page? Sounds misleading or false advertising. Kind of like the fact it says 2.1L and 2.6H on it too. If they are going advertise like that, I may be going with Whipple.

Looks like I'll be referring to your sticky thread then. Hopefully I can understand it all. I am sure it will be cheaper this way too? So now it comes down to, if I do Eaton swap method, do I go with KB or Whipple 03/04 bolt-on S/C, and which unit?

[Scott McClure]

Originally Posted by OSUALUM78

I just called KB. Kudos to TRMach1 on being right on the money!

The short of it, with KB is I go Mach 1 kit 2.1L or go somewhere else to make the power I want. They don't 'upgrade to a bigger S/C, nor could I buy the Mach 1 kit, sell the 2.1L to someone, and buy a 2.6H or 2.8H from them, as they don't sell just the S/C itself.

WTF? Am I not being heard? You have two choices. An Eaton swap minus the Eaton then use the blower of your choice for a 03-04 Cobra, or the smaller 2.1 kit made for the Mach 1. And if you want big power you need to start thinking out of the box in regards to compression. 8:5-1 is too low in my opinion. I have 9:1-1 compression, see upwards of 25 lbs of boost at times, all with 20 degrees of timing. And no race gas, just a splash of Torco mixed with 93. And forget what Kenne Bell says, half the time they don't have a clue what's going on. Which is why I ended up with a Whipple. Got tired of their antics.

[ZincShaker]

Originally Posted by Scott McClure

WTF? Am I not being heard? You have two choices. An Eaton swap minus the Eaton then use the blower of your choice for a 03-04 Cobra, or the smaller 2.1 kit made for the Mach 1. And if you want big power you need to start thinking out of the box in regards to compression. 8:5-1 is too low in my opinion. I have 9:1-1 compression, see upwards of 25 lbs of boost at times, all with 20 degrees of timing. And no race gas, just a splash of Torco mixed with 93. And forget what Kenne Bell says, half the time they don't have a clue what's going on. Which is why I ended up with a Whipple. Got tired of their antics.

You're making it very clear. I think the op is complicating it too much.

[ASH302]

Originally Posted by ZincShaker

You're making it very clear. I think the op is complicating it too much.

agreed, thinking to much into it and not getting what has been said you need a eaton swap part to start with and then you make the big power you want, nuff said

ASh

[ASH302]

i know the aluminator is a good motor but are you set on that??? could take and get a built crate motor from somewhere else and stroke it to a 5.0 or 5.4 the power will be alot better, when i got my stroke motor i gain 25rwhp just for it being stroked also a lower CR than the mach, mine is now low 9's, but i think you just need to face it that with the mach 2.1 KB your not going to make the power you want, these guys are handing you the info your asking, so take it and run with it and get your build on

ASh

[OSUALUM78]

Originally Posted by Scott McClure

WTF? Am I not being heard? You have two choices. An Eaton swap minus the Eaton then use the blower of your choice for a 03-04 Cobra, or the smaller 2.1 kit made for the Mach 1. And if you want big power you need to start thinking out of the box in regards to compression. 8:5-1 is too low in my opinion. I have 9:1-1 compression, see upwards of 25 lbs of boost at times, all with 20 degrees of timing. And no race gas, just a splash of Torco mixed with 93. And forget what Kenne Bell says, half the time they don't have a clue what's going on. Which is why I ended up with a Whipple. Got tired of their antics.

You are being heard. But it's difficult for me to discern info when (1) I am not mechanically inclined. I've already stated this fact, (2) I have no experience with this, (3) the KB site can lead anyone to believe that their Mach 1 kit can use the 2.6H and get up to 750HP

I am not going to mess with Aluminator in the sense of tearing it open to change compression. Now should degree cams or mess with timing before install (this can be done without tearing into the motor correct?), I have no idea.

After talking with KB (today wasn't my first call to them), and reading on their site, more and more they seem to be a company that has a clue what they are talking about, but only in retrospect to their product, not compared to the S/C market. That's just my opinion though.

With the same note, based on my opinion, prior to talking with them the few times I have, their customer service is pretty poor which is steering me to doing the Eaton method and going with a Whipple. I could have dealt with the power the 2.1L puts out, but their poor customer service and their site being sketchy, I am off into the land I didn't want to go. Piecing together my own 'kit' by going the Eaton method. I really just wanted to buy an all inclusive kit that could get me to 500-550 and to 650-700 at the wheels.

Originally Posted by txmach302

i know the aluminator is a good motor but are you set on that??? could take and get a built crate motor from somewhere else and stroke it to a 5.0 or 5.4 the power will be alot better, when i got my stroke motor i gain 25rwhp just for it being stroked also a lower CR than the mach, mine is now low 9's, but i think you just need to face it that with the mach 2.1 KB your not going to make the power you want, these guys are handing you the info your asking, so take it and run with it and get your build on

ASh

Yes, set on the Aluminator 8:5. Again I am not mechanically inclined to understand very much, nor do I have the time to research all that is needed.

I agree as I related in my reply to Scott's post above yours. Bye KB, onto the Eaton method with a Whipple.

[ASH302]

when you get into that eaton swap your going to learn alot, just understand that

ASh

[try846]

Been through all this, the eaton swap sounds great and then upgrading to the larger KB, problem is getting all the eaton parts is borderline robbery. There seems to be no way of doing this that is cost effective, that is why I stayed with the 2.1 with the 8 rib setup, have not been able to dyno mine yet, hopefully close to 550 and my tuner agrees. The car screamed with 480 before, if your mind is set on over 600HP, buy a cobra and start there. My personal opinion is that a car for the street really does not need more than that, if it is for the track then that is a different story. If I can be of any help PM me. Oh yeah I would stick with 9:1 compression either way.