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Old 06-24-2018, 10:01 PM   #1
69GT
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MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

So the 5.0 and 4.6 are pretty similar. Any idea how hard it would be to put a 2011-2017 MT82 behind a 4V 4.6 in our Mach 1s?
After doing some research I figured out there is almost no advantage to using any of the T56 transmissions in place of my stock 3650. The MT82 has a superior gear ratio spread with 5th being the 1:1 ratio instead of 4th on the T-56 variants. The O/D ratio is about the same as my stock 5-Speed.
Guessing shifter location might be a problem among other things. Just wondering if any one has tried it. Seems it's tighter ratios would be an awesome fit for our 7000 RPM engines.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:08 AM   #2
4valve 4tw?
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

I would disagree. There are 2 ratios for aftermarket T56's, and if you look at the "better real world" geared T56 vs 3650 it's a good improvement
1st 2.97 3.38
2nd 2.10 2.00
3rd 1.43 1.32
4th 1.00 1.00
5th .74 .62
6th .50

So sure, if you live your life one holeshot at a time you loose out on first. But every other gear(save 4th obviously) is better off, even if they're not tighter and 6th gets you an even taller overdrive for more relaxed cruising. This is all ignoring another real world point. that the aftermarket T56 Magnum's just wont quit. They laugh at 300hp.

The MT82 is a different beast for a reason. You're right, it's exponentially more aggressive and tighter spread. It's been matched to the 5.0 powerband. But the reality is the Mach engine, unless it's been opened up, isn't a 7000k rpm engine. Look at a stock dyno and the redline being 6800 is actually a bit generous. A 5.0 peaks at 6500, pulls to 7000 effortlessly, and although vvt works wonders isn't a torque monster like the GM 6.0/6.2/Hemi 5.7/6.4. So the MT82 helps it get in the peaky powerband as quick as possible, and keeps it there. Optional 3.73's only add fuel to the fire.

Also real world: Although I haven't heard tons about the 2015+ version, the MT82 has a documented spotty track record. The T56 may not be buttery smooth, but the 2.97 1st .50 6th version with 4.10+ rear is an aggressive, built to last, and daily driveable option. Can even run 4.56's with that overdrive if you wanted with little downside.
Edit: Now if you meant picking up a low mileage Cobra T56 no, its ratios offer no improvement and durability while much better, would be only a small boost compared to the aftermarket T56 magnum's(or Magnum XL as I think they call them).
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:56 PM   #3
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

What he said G-forced has a built 3650 option also. It's your choice but, better to stick with a Tremec over the crappy Chinese built MT82.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:45 PM   #4
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

The mt82 has been pretty well proven a piece of **** and I’m not sure there’s any way to use a clutch cable with it even if shifter location wasn’t a problem
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:54 PM   #5
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4valve 4tw? View Post
I would disagree. There are 2 ratios for aftermarket T56's, and if you look at the "better real world" geared T56 vs 3650 it's a good improvement
1st 2.97 3.38
2nd 2.10 2.00
3rd 1.43 1.32
4th 1.00 1.00
5th .74 .62
6th .50

So sure, if you live your life one holeshot at a time you loose out on first. But every other gear(save 4th obviously) is better off, even if they're not tighter and 6th gets you an even taller overdrive for more relaxed cruising. This is all ignoring another real world point. that the aftermarket T56 Magnum's just wont quit. They laugh at 300hp.

The MT82 is a different beast for a reason. You're right, it's exponentially more aggressive and tighter spread. It's been matched to the 5.0 powerband. But the reality is the Mach engine, unless it's been opened up, isn't a 7000k rpm engine. Look at a stock dyno and the redline being 6800 is actually a bit generous. A 5.0 peaks at 6500, pulls to 7000 effortlessly, and although vvt works wonders isn't a torque monster like the GM 6.0/6.2/Hemi 5.7/6.4. So the MT82 helps it get in the peaky powerband as quick as possible, and keeps it there. Optional 3.73's only add fuel to the fire.

Also real world: Although I haven't heard tons about the 2015+ version, the MT82 has a documented spotty track record. The T56 may not be buttery smooth, but the 2.97 1st .50 6th version with 4.10+ rear is an aggressive, built to last, and daily driveable option. Can even run 4.56's with that overdrive if you wanted with little downside.
Edit: Now if you meant picking up a low mileage Cobra T56 no, its ratios offer no improvement and durability while much better, would be only a small boost compared to the aftermarket T56 magnum's(or Magnum XL as I think they call them).
Yeah I did consider the GM ratio T-56 with the .5 OD the only other option since the Cobra T-56 only offers a tweener OD ratio on it's way to the same OD ratio my stock tranny has.
The MT82 just has a better performance gear spread than the economy minded T-56 with it's 2 overdrive gears. Keeps our engines in the power-band better.
If it were as easy a swap as a T-56 that MT82 would make a stock geared Mach 1 faster than any T-56 all things being equal.

The MT82
1st - 3.66
2nd - 2.43
3rd - 1.69
4th - 1.32
5th - 1.00
6th - 0.65

T-56
1st 2.97
2nd 2.10
3rd 1.43
4th 1.00
5th .74
6th .50

That being said I know the likely best idea is to get a T56 with the .5 O/D and run 4.10 gears.
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:41 PM   #6
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

You are forgetting the rear gear plays into it as well. With the T-56 you can swap rear gears and get where you want to.

MT82 1st 3.66 * 3.55 stock MACh gear = 12.99
T56 1st 2.97 * 4.30 rear gear = 12.77

or

MT82 5th 1.00 * 3.55 = 3.55 [2.30 overall in 6th]
T56 5th .74 * 4.56 = 3.37 [ 2.28 overall in 6th]

The tighter gear spacing of he T56 will keep you in the power band better than the bigger spacing of the MT82. This is why the 10 speed automatic is so much faster than he manual in the newer cars. The rpm stays in the sweet spot. Depending on your setup you just use the rear gear to tune he operating range.

For me the T56 and 4.10s would the way to go. The 3650's 3.35 with 4.10s is a little much and then I could pop it in 6th and cruise the highway lower than stock rpms.
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Old 06-30-2018, 03:16 PM   #7
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAD_MACh1 View Post
You are forgetting the rear gear plays into it as well. With the T-56 you can swap rear gears and get where you want to.

MT82 1st 3.66 * 3.55 stock MACh gear = 12.99
T56 1st 2.97 * 4.30 rear gear = 12.77

or

MT82 5th 1.00 * 3.55 = 3.55 [2.30 overall in 6th]
T56 5th .74 * 4.56 = 3.37 [ 2.28 overall in 6th]

The tighter gear spacing of he T56 will keep you in the power band better than the bigger spacing of the MT82. This is why the 10 speed automatic is so much faster than he manual in the newer cars. The rpm stays in the sweet spot. Depending on your setup you just use the rear gear to tune he operating range.

For me the T56 and 4.10s would the way to go. The 3650's 3.35 with 4.10s is a little much and then I could pop it in 6th and cruise the highway lower than stock rpms.
Yeah. I agree. In the long run it would probably be easier to get a .5 OD T-56 in there than it would to get the MT-82 to work.
This idea came from realizing why the automatic 10-Speed is so much faster than the manual 6-Speed in the 2018 Mustang. It has little to do with how fast the tranny shifts. Has a lot to do with the automatic having a 7 gear spread between 1st and 1:1 ratio in 7th.
In the 18 Mustang it's basically a 4-Speed manual vs a 7-Speed automatic for acceleration purposes. The 7-speed is always at a better spot in the power-band and doesn't swing out of it like the manual does on shifts. The 18 Mustang's manual doesn't have as good a gear spread as the 11-17 because they sacrificed the 1:1 5th gear for another overdrive gear. So basically if you swap a 2011 6M into an 18 6M Mustang it will be faster. So the only reason the 6M 18 is faster than the 6M 17 is the raw power of the Gen 3 Coyote

I know I went waaaay into the weeds on this question. It has more to do with me lamenting the demise of manual transmission R&D and advancements. Modern Manual transmissions are still basically 4-Speeds just like they were in 1969. it's just a matter of how many overdrives they can add. Hell the 7-Speed manual in the Corvette has 3 freakin overdrive gears! It's still a 4-Speed!
The old MT-82 with all its problems but it's 5th gear 1:1 ratio was giving me hope for a 7 or 8 speed manual someday with 6th being 1:1 and 2 OD gears.

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Old 06-30-2018, 10:14 PM   #8
4valve 4tw?
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Re: MT82 in a Mach 1 possible?

I think you're missing two points, but first just to clarify, the ratios we're listing aren't a Ford vs Chevy thing. I forget which ratios the GT500 of different years run, but the Cobra has an oddball stupid ratio set. I don't know if any other car runs it. GM has a normal and more aggressive set, one for the C5 Z06/Z51 Vettes and bigger cars(GTO, SS, G8 GXP, etc). The base Vette(possibly new camaro as well if I remember) is a 2.66 first, .50 6th. The more aggressive trans has a 2.97 first and .58 6th. The aftermarket T56 magnum is available in Ford or GM applications, maybe even Dodge now. It's a 600hp capable built T56 that has, in my opinion, the ideal gearset for a street car and the worst. It gives you the more aggressive 1st-3rd, and taller 5th and 6th as well as the less aggressive 1-3 and shorter 5th and 6th, same as the Cobra. That's why you gain nothing really with a Cobra T56. I guess the only reason Ford spec'd it that way, was because they were worried it was heavier then the 96-01 Cobras and made more power, enough to overcome the less aggressive 1st-3rd.

So the aftermarket T56 Magnum/XL is what you'd have to buy, and gives you plenty of gear when you combine it with whatever rear set you pick. 4.11's with a .5 rear and a 4.6 V8 isn't anything crazy. My GTO had the .58 6th and 3.46 rear and turned like 1700rpm's @ 65mph. Also had tons of low end 400lb-ft though. Of course all this isn't factoring in tire size...

But to address two things: Yes the 10 speed ABSOLUTELY shifts faster and cuts time vs the manual. If you think that's understated, listen to Chevy's 8 speed or GM/Ford's 10 speed under wide open throttle, then listen to someone pull away in a manual anything. Not that you're wrong about the gearing playing a factor at all, you're not(didn't know the 18+ 6 mt82 got changed, interesting). But again, more aggressive means more shifting, not ideal in a manual. For example, I remember reading when the 5.0 came out that with 3.73's and Brembo wheel/tires that it topped out around 110 in 4th gear with stock 6800rpm redline. Guys in cool air or simply intake/tuned were hitting higher than that, so a shift was needed into 5th gear. Guys with 3.55 rear however(or raise redline) could run it out in 4th, saving a shift, and usually time.

Also, I think you're underestimating powerbands. The stock Mach powerband is like a very hp/l dense Ohv engine, not a dohc screamer. Even an 01 Cobra wants to pull to redline better. The new 7400rpm 5.0 and Mach motor aren't comparable, and it doesn't need, nor want, the most absolute aggressive gearing you can get. There's also the fact the 1-4 is street speeds(and I freely admit I've done illegal activities, safely as possible, on roads). You might be little too worried about 5th, when rear gearing is plenty to make those speeds more aggressive, 1st-4th.
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