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Old 08-27-2009, 04:08 PM   #176
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post
Hmmmm, no engine failure there!
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:10 PM   #177
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by Stopsign32v View Post
What PROOF? Please, post up any PROOF you have that UD pulleys cause a massive engine failure on a Mach 1.
He doesnt have proof on paper, and not many will. (for most everything)

He is just trying to help out. He has been around some people who have had the problems, and has seen it. It might be true, probably is.

I personally, tell customers not to run them. But I run the **** out of them, I want every last hp/tq in my cars. (I build simple set-ups, so every bit of power helps)
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:15 PM   #178
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

He said there has been proof shown, so I'd like to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder View Post
and shown PROOF in this website
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:26 PM   #179
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

1) I don't post my phone number over the internet.

2) I'd much rather you post proof here for others to see and learn.

But thanks for the offer, I'm sure Paul is a great guy to talk with.
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Old 08-27-2009, 05:37 PM   #180
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I honestly don't want anything to do with this argument, but I just find it interesting how some people who are arguing about how these products haven't hurt their engine and their engine didn't een come out of a Mach, it came out of a 2001 Cobra. Last time I checked that's a different engine for the parts to be specific for... just saying.
I thought this thread would help me make a decision, but since you guys are all too busy bickering over who's right and who heard what, I'll just have to get my information somewhere else.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:06 PM   #181
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I just bought my Mach last week. I cant seem to find a pic of stock pulleys...yes I searched. Can someone post of pic up of the stock pulleys bc I ve read enough that I dont want to chance UDP. And this is my first Ford, so I dont know what the stock pulleys look like.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:26 PM   #182
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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I just bought my Mach last week. I cant seem to find a pic of stock pulleys...yes I searched. Can someone post of pic up of the stock pulleys bc I ve read enough that I dont want to chance UDP. And this is my first Ford, so I dont know what the stock pulleys look like.
the balancer will prolly be a sorta black with specks of rust lol.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:55 PM   #183
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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I have NO IDEA where mine's at..........prolly in that thief Manny's tool box.

Just look at your car man.
I did look. The car was garage kept, only has 23k miles. You can almost eat off the motor, I dont see any rust on any of the pulleys. It does have a motorcraft belt on it which could be a good sign. And if Manny stole them from you, you should put Manny in the tool box too.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:28 PM   #184
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

To put things into perspective, I've been following this topic since 2001. I can plainly state that there has been oil pump failures related to Steeda and other small diameter dampers that are too numerous to count.

Let's talk about why this happens with Cobra’s and Machs and not SOHC Mustang GT’s, 5.0’s, Camaro’s and everything else that is not a high revving DOHC Ford.

  1. First are the fragile, powdered metal oil pump gears. They simply cannot take a lot of abuse.
  2. Second is the fact that 4 camshafts and all the chains required to run them create a lot of harmonics in the crankshaft. That’s a problem.
  3. Third is the steel crankshaft made by Kellog. It’s the kind of crank hot rodders dream of but it’s super rigid and does not absorb harmonics like a cast crank will.
  4. Fourth is the internally balanced short block that is more susceptible to engine harmonics than an externally balanced setup.
  5. Fifth is the manual transmission. Gear banging and no fluid filled torque converter.
  6. Finally, the death blow for the powdered metal gears: High RPM. The DOHC in stock form performs best when shifted at the factory designated red line, 6800 RPM. Those are some pretty serious revolutions and there are a lot of harmonics created.



All these things combine to make the Ford DOHC oil pump gears uniquely susceptible to failure. As such, the oil pump gears can fail under a variety of conditions that increase crankshaft harmonics. Over revving, forced induction and yes, inferior dampers that do not adequately control harmonics.

Here is a who’s who of the nation’s top modular engine builders that recommend avoiding small size dampers like Steeda on DOHC Ford engines:

Boss 330 Racing. Al Pappito

Modular Performance. John and Mike Tymenski

Accufab Racing. John Mihovetz. NHRA AA/AT World Record Holder

Livernois Motorsports

Pauls High Performance

Sean Hyland Motorsports

VT Engines




Here is small sample of the things they’ve had to say about small diameter dampers:



Quote:
"Do you rev your engine over 6500 rpm? If you do you should worry...The next time you blast through the gears might be your last"
Al Pappito

Quote:
"We do not install small dampers on any DOHC engine builds. All our engines get Innovators West full size dampers"
Livernoise Motorsports

Quote:
"There is alot of harmonic vibration on the front of mod. cranks. The small dia. dampers do not adequately control the vibration"
Al Pappito

Quote:
"The net of all this information is to use the (stock) '96-'01 Cobra balancer (F6ZZ-6312-AB) on all manual transmission, forged crank applications"
Sean Hyland

Quote:
"It appears that if you want your engine to live a happy life keep your stock vibration damper/pulleys"
Al Pappito

Quote:
"Cheapo balancers just do not work with powdered metal gears"
J. Mihovetz

Quote:
"Food for thought..I just rebuilt a '98 cobra it has spent the last five years as a road race car. The bone stock engine had never had a wrench on it, including the rusty stock damper sitting right where it was bolted in 1998. 20,000 mi at full throttle. This thing was totally worn out .guess what....The flats on the crank and the stock pump looked great.
In contrast...A slightly famous Factory stock cobra after a mid season NMRA teardown showed a problem. After 500 street miles and about 35 quarter mile passes the rotors had beat depressions about .040.'' deep into the drive flats where the pump contacts the crank. That engine was wearing a small dia. underdrive damper"
Al Pappito

Quote:
"There also seems to be increased instances of oil-pump failure when some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced-diameter harmonic balancer"
Sean Hyland

Quote:
"After building truckloads of modular engines a pattern has emerged. Most all oil pump failures involve underdrive pulleys"
Al Pappito

Quote:
"If anyone will spend $5000+ to rebuild an engine, $400 for a damper should be one of the first things. I'm using an ATI"
VT Engines



So let’s review:

If you own a Ford DOHC engine built from 1996 forward, and you rev it over 6500 RPM, every major modular engine builder in the country agrees that it is foolish to run a small diameter damper.

In addition to improper design resulting in numerous engine failures, small diameter dampers have been shown on several occasions to be out of round showing excessive run out when measured with a dial indicator. This is not only poor design but poor manufacturing and quality control. This probably contributes to the vibration many have felt at higher RPM with aftermarket, under drive dampers.



Some guidelines established by the professionals who build these unique engines are as follows:
  1. The stock damper with stock powdered metal gears is good to 7,000 RPM.
  2. The stock damper with billet gears can operate to 7,400 RPM but is not advisable.
  3. Anything over 7,200 RPM should be running billet gears and an ATI damper.
  4. A small diameter damper shouldn’t be run in any combination over 6,500 RPM. Billet gears will hold up with a small damper but the harmonics beat up the crankshaft drive pretty good and eventually something will fail whether the pump, a camshaft gear or the crank trigger.




Finally, let’s address some of the arguments presented by under drive, small diameter damper proponents:



Argument 1: “Show me proof!”

Answer: Idiot.



Argument 2: “I’ve run a Steeda small damper aggressively for a long time and have had no problems”

Answer: That’s not impossible. Varying production tolerances will make some oil pump gears more durable than others. Most people don’t want to find out the hard way.



Argument 3: We risk engine damage any time we install an aftermarket performance part on our cars.

Answer: In some cases that may be true but for the most part it simply is not. H-beam rods, forged pistons, hardened oil pump gears, ATI damper, billet oil pump gears, intake and exhaust mods. The list goes on and on. Even things like nitrous and supercharging are relatively safe when applied properly. And the inherent risk in their use is a little more tempting when we’re talking 100+ horsepower gains VS 3 - 5 hp for an under drive damper.



Argument 4: I’ve seen oil pumps fail with stock dampers.

Answer: Sure, it happens. The oil pumps are a marginal design from the factory. Increasing RPM beyond the factory limited 6800 RPM or installing power adders (nitrous, blowers, turbo) are just a couple examples of things that can increase engine harmonics. That is not a reason to install an inferior product that further jeopardizes your engine.



Argument 5: Most oil pump failures can be traced to improper damper installation.

Answer: Not true. What that statement is basically saying is that all the professional engine builders listed above don’t know how to install a damper. I don’t have to point out how ridiculous that is. Besides, it’s one bolt (new) torqued properly. Not rocket science. As a side note TheBlkMach1 had his damper installed by Steeda at their facility. He experienced pump failure with no other contributing factors.



Argument 6: Oil pump failures only occur on race engines or engines that are “over revved”.

Answer: Depends on your definition of “over revved”. Al Pappito plainly states that a small damper engine should not be revved over 6500 RPM. That’s a LONG way from “over revving” a DOHC engine that the factory designed to run at 6800 RPM for hours on end.



Argument 7: Steedas website says they worked with Ford to achieve the proper dampening characteristics.

Answer: That is the standard damper statement they’ve always used. It is meaningless. Fords Technology Transfer Program is available to anyone wanting to build an aftermarket part for a Ford. It can be used to obtain dimensional information as well as many other parameters.



Argument 8: Steeda has a new damper that is as heavy as the stock unit.

Answer: Weight is only one of several factors involved in producing a properly designed damper. The way they’ve distributed a bunch of the weight way out in front does not instill confidence. It's pretty tough to throw caution to the wind and blindly trust this company just because they've covertly admitted to marketing an inferior piece by completely redesigning it and quietly offering it in place of the original unit. Try calling them to ask about it. They wont admit to a re-design. Liability. It only took them 10 years. They haven’t even bothered making any claims regarding improved ability to control harmonics, let alone admitting to a re-design. Guinea pig it for them? No thank you.



In the end it boils down to whether or not 5 hp is worth the risk. Especially when nearly equal performance gains can be had by installing Cobra R pulley’s on the alternator and power steering pump. Even more by adding an electric water pump.

Todd
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:20 AM   #185
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Good post Todd.

The difference between me and the people you listed.....I run UD's religiously......but will not, and have not ever sold a set to a customer with a 4V.

Some of the people/names you mentioned, don't run them.....but will sell them all day long.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:29 AM   #186
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I just took out a March pulley off my car if anyone wants to buy it.

Part #1158

It was the cause of a rattle that I had, BUT it's inconclusive as to whether the excessive RTV was the cause or if the culprit was the pulley itself.

Thread:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...ll-fuggup.html





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Old 08-29-2009, 01:18 AM   #187
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Wow, you guys just love to argue...


Just think, if Ford put Cobra Oil pumps in the Mach's we wouldn't even have this little thread.

....never blame the pump, always blame the pulley.
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Old 08-29-2009, 02:53 AM   #188
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

So wait, you all are saying you can go buy cobra r alternator and power steering pump pullies, im guessing from a 2000, and have the same effect as underdrive pullies without the risk? Part numbers? Tuning issues? Anything else i should know on the subject?
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Old 08-29-2009, 03:15 AM   #189
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

fwiw hondas have the same issue. although we could use the ati and fluidamper....not sure if you guys can get them for the stang..never looked. the problem was revving to super high rpms >9k rpms created bad vibrations that causes oil pump failure due to harmonics just like you guys are talking about. i didnt read this whole thread so sorry if im adding un needed info. under drive pullies are looked down upon in the import world as well as in the domestic world. are the fluidamper and ati damper availible for our motors? the last motor i had built i was gonna run the ati..it was actually recommended by the builder..i was planning on revving that motor to 10,500rpms.....since the engine builder competitivly races imports he felt confident that the motor would hold and the oil pump would not fail with those rpms and the ati damper. just a thought....worth looking into?
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:55 AM   #190
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Todd, one of the best posts I've seen in a long time.....................
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:13 AM   #191
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder View Post
Psssssssstttttttttttttttt............COBRAS HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM!!!

SAME POWDERED METAL DOO DOO!

I thought they were better than what we had??? at least different tolerances???


I've had underdrives on every Mustang I ever had, I just can't help myself(habit?)... ..but, for me...so far so good.
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Old 08-29-2009, 11:25 AM   #192
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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So wait, you all are saying you can go buy cobra r alternator and power steering pump pullies, im guessing from a 2000, and have the same effect as underdrive pullies without the risk? Part numbers? Tuning issues? Anything else i should know on the subject?
Summit sells them.

mch-640 is the p/s pulley number

don't have the Alt. pulley number.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:20 PM   #193
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Why is it that this subject gets everyone's blood pressure up?

Todd, Bill, Scott, we all could argue this point till we're blue in the face. Like any other mod, people are going to use it if it provide a cheap hp gain. If they want to take the risk, so be it, it's there money and their car.

So what about the pump gears that have failed on engines with stock dampeners? It's about 50/50 for those gears that I've seen fail and even then the number of failures are low, very low.

I've recommended the March Dampener for years and know of no one that experienced any engine damage because of them. However, when recommending them I always make it known that that of the "issues."

How many engines have been damaged by dampeners as compared to other causes, bad tunes, nitrous, superchargers, missed shifts, rod knocks due to various reasons, aggressive tunes, etc.? Most any mod carries a risk, this is just one of those risks that car owners must weigh.

As long as there are dynos there will be people willing to do anything to extract the last hp out of there combination.


Mod away people.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:27 PM   #194
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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LMMFAO................I told ya Todd.
Glad I could make you right.
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Old 08-29-2009, 02:29 PM   #195
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

While Im new to Fords and the Mach 1, I ve been around muscle cars most of my life. I think its absolutely silly to risk blowing up a $4000 motor to gain maybe 7 hp. But hey thats just me.
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Old 08-29-2009, 03:49 PM   #196
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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While Im new to Fords and the Mach 1, I ve been around muscle cars most of my life. I think its absolutely silly to risk blowing up a $4000 motor to gain maybe 7 hp. But hey thats just me.
Yeah me too. Thats why I run them on my $1000 motors.

I actually think this engine I am baout to put in the car, will see a stock balancer for a little while, then maybe an Innovators West. I have someone who wants to buy my March 1158.
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Old 08-29-2009, 03:51 PM   #197
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

006

Holy rtv brother....

All you need to do, is put a dab in the keyway.....and I like to smear a very thin layer on the face of the washer......you caked that shat on!
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Old 08-29-2009, 04:17 PM   #198
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Originally Posted by na svt View Post
Why is it that this subject gets everyone's blood pressure up?

Todd, Bill, Scott, we all could argue this point till we're blue in the face. Like any other mod, people are going to use it if it provide a cheap hp gain. If they want to take the risk, so be it, it's there money and their car.
Not that big a deal. In the end you'll have your opinion, I'll have mine, and someone else will have theirs. No right, no wrong, just opinions. No one is an expert here, myself included.
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Old 08-29-2009, 04:21 PM   #199
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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006

Holy rtv brother....

All you need to do, is put a dab in the keyway.....and I like to smear a very thin layer on the face of the washer......you caked that shat on!
Nah, I did not install the March. My buddy who is a Ford tech did it for me.

When I took it out last week and put the stock one back in, and I made sure to take the bolt out before the final torquing to remove all the excess RTV that got squeezed out of the keyway. I did not want to repeat the prev condition.

I think the problem stems from March not providing a larger install bolt. If that had been the case, if a longer install bolt had been provided and used, when pulling it out to use the Ford TTY one, the extra RTV would have been noted and wiped off. I and everybody else would also assume that it would have been squished out to the side, but apparently the extra RTV got stuck in there and did not make it's way out and since my buddy did not have a chance to check before the final torque procedure, that was the result.

http://lamustangclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:12 PM   #200
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post
Good post Todd.

The difference between me and the people you listed.....I run UD's religiously......but will not, and have not ever sold a set to a customer with a 4V.

Some of the people/names you mentioned, don't run them.....but will sell them all day long.

Thanks. If all businesses operated that way we'd be better off.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder View Post
Great post Todd!
Thanks for taking the time to write that and assembling things that I've told numerous times here.

But if someone replies to the contrary, they'll say all you wrote is HEARSAY.
Appreciate it. It really needed to be in one post so we can quit repeating ourselves. Copy/paste, lol.



Quote:
Originally Posted by japan4racing View Post
fwiw hondas have the same issue. although we could use the ati and fluidamper....not sure if you guys can get them for the stang..never looked. .....since the engine builder competitivly races imports he felt confident that the motor would hold and the oil pump would not fail with those rpms and the ati damper. just a thought....worth looking into?
Yeh, I've heard about this issue with imports. Multiple cams, powdered metal gears and high RPM is not something to mess with. Thanks for posting that information. Very informative. And yes, we do have an ATI/Innovators West option and it is considered the best. A fluid filled unit is also available and I have not heard of any failures with it.



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Todd, one of the best posts I've seen in a long time.....................
Thank you. Appreciate it.
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