KB Dyno Tune Question

[Durrman]

I went in to have the car Dyno'd to see what kind of power I'm putting down with the KB chip, and my car died on the dyno. The odometer goes to all dashes, and it won't start. When I pull the KB chip out, it will go back to "normal" and start fine. Put it back in and computer goes crazy again.

So... I had the guy do a custom tune (already had an X3 from the gear change).

He said that the knock sensors pull timing from 4k RPMs onwards. Does anybody else know what their tuners did when tunning the 2.1 KB intercooled kit? He limited how much timing the knock sensors will pull, but he left them on. He said timing is in the 12-14 range.

Also, what kind of HP/TQ are people seeing on a Mustang dyno? I hit 336 Ft/lbs at about 4k RPM, and is slowly drops off after that. The HP gets as high as 337 at about 5600 RPM. That is as high as the tuner went. AFR is ~11.4 across the board.

On this dyno, stock, my car put down about 315 ft/lbs and about 280 HP.

The HP is still climbing at 5600 RPM.

Boost is right on at 9 PSI.

I'll post up a scan of the dyno print out tomorrow at work.

Is running the dyno up to 5600 RPM "good enough" to know that the AFR will still be good around 6500 or so? I want to be sure I'm not risking anything by rev'ing past 5600.

And does the HP/TQ sound reasonable? I wish I'd had a chance to see what I was pulling with the KB chip.

Seat of the pants, feels strong, but I'm a bit nervous about this tune.

Also, sending the chip back to KB so they can check it out. Maybe I got a bad chip. Cleaned off the contact on the EEC enough times...

[jchambers]

Likely, the KB chip isn't the correct strategy.

I'd normally tune a 2.1KB like yours for more around 19-20 degrees on 93 pump at the 9psi. KB will likely push a little more. I'd also shoot for an AFR around 11.6-11.8. On my Mustang Dyno, the base intercooled 2.1 kit is worth more like 450 RWHP. I'd run it all the way up to the redline to ensure that fueling and timing are correct. In terms of the knock sensors, I'll eliminate the KS ability to add timing but let it take up to 3-4 degrees when it needs to. This is assuming that you tuner has mapped the edge of borderline knock.

[DSPTurtle]

Man, sorry to hear you are having all these problems!!! You should be 100 ft/lbs higher all the way down at 2,500 rpms. At least that is what happened with my bone stock Mach after the KB. Those numbers are way down. Sure, the Mustang Dyno is a little more conservative, but definitely not by 100 on both trq and hp.
And yes, I am running the KB chip.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by DSPTurtle

Man, sorry to hear you are having all these problems!!! You should be 100 ft/lbs higher all the way down at 2,500 rpms. At least that is what happened with my bone stock Mach after the KB. Those numbers are way down. Sure, the Mustang Dyno is a little more conservative, but definitely not by 100 on both trq and hp.
And yes, I am running the KB chip.

It is starting to get on my nerves a little bit. Maybe a lot...

The guy doing the tune didn't seem to have any idea what to do about the knock sensors, and the power, according to the dyno, isn't there - but I will say, with this new tune, I spin the tires hard in 1st and 2nd.

So, I tihnk I would rather run the KB chip then the custom tune I have - basically a waste of $850 or so...

I got a RMA from KB, and I'm sending them the chip today. When it works, it works great, but then it will up and die, and won't start back up again. If I pull the chip out (I've had the EEC in and out about 10 times now...) it will start and idle fine.

So, I think when I get the chip back from KB (hopefully a new one?) I will try to run it again. If it dies, I can pull the chip and load the custom tune form the X3 and go, but hopefully a new chip, and another round of cleaning the computer connector (it is down to the copper and very clean...) will have everything running good.

[Durrman]

Here is a scan of the dyno graph. It is my stock pull from a year or 2 ago, and yesterdays. It should be obvious which is which.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

Sounds like you need to use the new chip or find a new tuner. That chip is $850????????

$850 was the total for the custom tune. About 5.5 hours at $165/hour plus tax and setup on the dyno, etc. The custom tune is programmed with my X3, so no chip.

[Furinox]

Wow thats a rip off man. I'd tell him he needs to fix it or i'd do a charge back on your card for not getting what you paid for. I JUST started tuning and I could tune it in half that I bet. I definitely wouldn't trust that guy's tune. I've been tuning for about a month and even I know that you can scale back the sensitivity of the knock sensors which is good practice when adding a blower. Heck I've had my knock sensors turned off even when I had the vortech.

[DarkMach1]

Originally Posted by Durrman

$850 was the total for the custom tune. About 5.5 hours at $165/hour plus tax and setup on the dyno, etc. The custom tune is programmed with my X3, so no chip.

HOLY RIP OFF BATMAN!! not only that but he did a horrible job, dont pay that crook sh!t!!!

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by Furinox

Wow thats a rip off man. I'd tell him he needs to fix it or i'd do a charge back on your card for not getting what you paid for. I JUST started tuning and I could tune it in half that I bet. I definitely wouldn't trust that guy's tune. I've been tuning for about a month and even I know that you can scale back the sensitivity of the knock sensors which is good practice when adding a blower. Heck I've had my knock sensors turned off even when I had the vortech.

I'm not sure why he didn't at least turn them off. It seems that, if they pull timing from 4k onward, always, then the blower is messing them up, and they are basically useless at that point. If there was any knock above 4k, then they couldn't do their job.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by Furinox

Wow thats a rip off man. I'd tell him he needs to fix it or i'd do a charge back on your card for not getting what you paid for. I JUST started tuning and I could tune it in half that I bet. I definitely wouldn't trust that guy's tune. I've been tuning for about a month and even I know that you can scale back the sensitivity of the knock sensors which is good practice when adding a blower. Heck I've had my knock sensors turned off even when I had the vortech.

Also, when you do a tune on a Mach1, would you pull higher then 5600 RPM? It seems like tuning a 7000 RPM capable engine to 5600 is, in short, not doing the job.

[jchambers]

I know the guys at Lentech very well. Len/Chris are more than welcome to call me if they have any questions. In terms of the 7000rpm, you need to look at the limits of the blower. Check with KB to see what the safe limits of the blower then at least start your consideration of the engine rpm limits from there. The power curve will also come into play. No sense in spinning to 7000 if that's 1000 rpm past the useable power peak.

[Furinox]

Originally Posted by Durrman

Also, when you do a tune on a Mach1, would you pull higher then 5600 RPM? It seems like tuning a 7000 RPM capable engine to 5600 is, in short, not doing the job.

yeas thats dumb not to pull it any higher than that unless something was messing up/maxing out.

you should be making over 400 hp easily with that blower. You'll probably run around 15* timing at wot on a completed tune if you don't have a forged bottom end.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by jchambers

I know the guys at Lentech very well. Len/Chris are more than welcome to call me if they have any questions. In terms of the 7000rpm, you need to look at the limits of the blower. Check with KB to see what the safe limits of the blower then at least start your consideration of the engine rpm limits from there. The power curve will also come into play. No sense in spinning to 7000 if that's 1000 rpm past the useable power peak.

That makes me tempted to have them call you and try again, but for $165/hr, I think I'll wait until I try the KB chip one more time...

[DarkMach1]

Originally Posted by jchambers

I know the guys at Lentech very well. Len/Chris are more than welcome to call me if they have any questions. In terms of the 7000rpm, you need to look at the limits of the blower. Check with KB to see what the safe limits of the blower then at least start your consideration of the engine rpm limits from there. The power curve will also come into play. No sense in spinning to 7000 if that's 1000 rpm past the useable power peak.

If a Heaton can make power til right near 7k rpm, there's no reason why a much more efficient 2.1 KB can't do it,I think who ever tuned it its either not familiar with tuning these cars or SCT or just not familiar with tuning period because 5.5hours?? My god! My tuner could've probably done 2 cars, if you can't do the job good and complete, dont charge as if you did.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by DarkMach1

If a Heaton can make power til right near 7k rpm, there's no reason why a much more efficient 2.1 KB can't do it,I think who ever tuned it its either not familiar with tuning these cars or SCT or just not familiar with tuning period because 5.5hours?? My god! My tuner could've probably done 2 cars, if you can't do the job good and complete, dont charge as if you did.

This pretty much sums up what I think right now. I am going to ask for a refund/partial refund.

I sent the KB chip back, so I think I will park the car and not drive it anymore until I get the KB chip back. Of course, when I get a new chip, even if it starts off working, how do I know it won't up and die on me again? I wish KB would just send me the data so I can tune the car with their tune with my X3.

[try846]

I made 475 with the KB chip.

[Durrman]

Since the KB Chip is an SCT chip, I decided to phone SCT, describe my problem, and see what they had to say. Their suggestion was that, when I cleaned off the connector on the computer, I cleaned if off a bit too much, so the chip isn't getting a good connection. Too bad I just mailed the chip back to KB so they could check it out, and too bad SCT suggests a new PCM in this case.

When I get a chip back from KB, I will add a bit of solder onto the fingers on the connector to "thicken" things up a bit, and go from there...

[Mr.Mach21]

I have the 2.1KB intercooled. I was seeing a hiccup when hard on the gas. I went to trusted SCT tuner and tweaked the KB Chip a little. Thing runs great now. 400ft/lbs torq 458rwhp I think the KB tune is just to basic and hard to get right when they just mail you a chip. It's needs to go to a dyno.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder

No......try plugging it back in first, especially if they give you a new chip.

Did you call KB and ask if they will send you a tune file for you to load on your Xcal3?

I sent them an e-mail this morning asking if they could send me a new chip today, before they get the return one in the mail (I said I would pay for the new chip and shipping if needed and get a refund when mine gets there).

I also asked if they would send me the file to use my X3.

No respnse yet though.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mach21

I have the 2.1KB intercooled. I was seeing a hiccup when hard on the gas. I went to trusted SCT tuner and tweaked the KB Chip a little. Thing runs great now. 400ft/lbs torq 458rwhp I think the KB tune is just to basic and hard to get right when they just mail you a chip. It's needs to go to a dyno.

Was your tuner able to read the KB tune off of the chip and modify it? My tuner said he couldn't get the tune off of the chip to load with the X3.

Also, do you have the switch on a vacuum/bost line that controls the BAP? KB (First DSPTurtle - Thanks!) told me not to use that, and to solder the wires for that switch together. When the chip is working, it seems to work great.

With the custom tune I have right now, it seems to buck a little bit when shifting.

[Mr.Mach21]

I'm bucked with the kb vacuum switch every time it kicked in. I threw it in the garbage and hard wired the BAP ON all the time. Runs great. And yes, the tuner was able to retune/tweak the KB chip.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mach21

I'm bucked with the kb vacuum switch every time it kicked in. I threw it in the garbage and hard wired the BAP ON all the time. Runs great. And yes, the tuner was able to retune/tweak the KB chip.

My tuner said he wouldn't be able to read the data off of the chip. Maybe they just don't have a chip programmer, although he said the chips are designed so you can't read the file back from it. I guess my tuner was wrong?

[DSPTurtle]

I have talked to a few people and they all said you CANNOT read the tune off the chip. THe KB tune is fine... I made a ton of HP and Torque on it as do others. People like the custom tune because you can tweak things like the O2 sensors in the rear to be off, etc. However, the KB chip is fine. You are having problems with the car dying, not making power... once you get that figured out you will be in good shape. Trust the company that you gave many thousands of dollars to... they really know their stuff. Especially since the rest of your motor is stock.

[Durrman]

Originally Posted by DSPTurtle

I have talked to a few people and they all said you CANNOT read the tune off the chip. THe KB tune is fine... I made a ton of HP and Torque on it as do others. People like the custom tune because you can tweak things like the O2 sensors in the rear to be off, etc. However, the KB chip is fine. You are having problems with the car dying, not making power... once you get that figured out you will be in good shape. Trust the company that you gave many thousands of dollars to... they really know their stuff. Especially since the rest of your motor is stock.

That's my plan. I'm waiting for KB to get my chip so they can check it out and send it back, or send a new one. I'm sure that their tune is better than anything I can get around here.

When I get a new one, I'm sure it will work fine, at first. I won't know if I'm going to have any problems until the day it up and dies on me. Very frustrating.

I've put ~200km, low RPM, conservative driving on the car with the custom tune and no issues, and that is twice as far as I've ever gone without the computer shutting down. So I'm sure I've narrowed it down to the chip, or the connection to the chip. I'm just not comfortable driving the car with this tune - I need that KB chip!

[slowr w/o blowr]

subscribing----

My tuner called SCT corporate and they said that the chip could not be reversed engineered into a SCT file.

BTW, 2 years on a KB tune. 467rwhp 399 torque at 9 psi.