Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP - Page 2 - 2003-04 Mach 1 Registry Owners Club

na svt · 04-23-2013, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachManRobby

seems a little unfair to be comparing cams on completely different setups especially when some of them have the stock manifolds.

Yup, comparing combo with ported intakes and longtubes/mid lengths to those with stock exh manifolds is not exactly an apples-to-apples.

I have long tubes (1 5/8"x2 1/2") and may have the time to get them installed in the next month. I'm not expecting a lot and if I get 5-10rwhp and 10-15rwtq I'll be happy. They will be needed however for the intake cams.

PC PRO's car is a freak.

tmhutch · 04-23-2013, 12:33 PM

I think you guys might be missing the point. This isnt to compare peak numbers this is to illustrate why we dont want to run Cobra cams (especially Mach cams) at a 108 ICL.

Cobra cams are designed to improve power between 5000 - 7000 RPM. Installing them at 108 ICL kills power in that range. Might as well save the time and effort, and keep the Mach cams.

If we took Cobra cammed cars at 108 ICL and compared them to Mach cammed cars, all with the same mods, the curves would be near identical and no benefit would be seen from the Cobra cams.

Heres an example. Below is the same condensed graph as above with 4 Machs running stock cams added to it. Notice the stock Mach 1's all track almost identical paths with the Cobra cammed cars of NA SVT and USCSTEW. The Cobra cammed cars should be up 20 - 30 lb ft tq between 5000 - 7000 RPM but there is very little differentiation between them because the 108 ICL kills power up top (this does not hold true for larger cams).

Heres the raw numbers with usernames. You guys can look them up or I'll post the graphs later today:

Hope that helps.

Bmeagher · 04-23-2013, 01:54 PM

The Cobra cammed cars should be up 20 - 30 lb ft tq between 5000 - 7000 RPM but there is very little differentiation between them because the 108 ICL kills power up top (this does not hold true for larger cams).

Heres the raw numbers with usernames. You guys can look them up or I'll post the graphs later today:

Hope that helps.[/QUOTE]

Mine should be in the mix there, I'm ahead of everyone else from 5000 up! When I had cobra cams

tmhutch · 04-23-2013, 03:07 PM

In the first graph I didnt want short runner intakes or anything else that enhanced high RPM power. I only wanted to show the benefits of Cobra cams at high lobe centers.

The second graph adds only cars with off road pipe (or high flow cats), catback (or mufflers welded in), air filter and in some cases a tune. No Cobra cams, no headers, no ported intakes, no pulleys etc. This was to illustrate that Cobra cams @ 108 ICL dont provide any benefit over stock Mach cams.

From a purely technical standpoint the outcome I'm illustrating is straight forward but cam timing is a pretty challenging subject so I wanted to show real life results from people right here on this forum.

Your car was a real animal with that Naz short runner, and I know a lot of people including myself are really looking forward to your results with the springs, GT followers and FR500. And the ability REV!

ab_mach1 · 04-23-2013, 04:45 PM

If you degree your stock cams, should you run the stock ECU tune?

Once you get this completed, can you proceed with email tunes like from Bama, etc?

tmhutch · 04-23-2013, 05:19 PM

Yes, you can run the stock tune no problem. I personally would NOT recommend Bama.

Guys like Don LaSota at LaSota Racing, Shaun Perry at Advanced Engine Development (AED) and Jon Lund at Lund Racing are excellent tuners who will do email tunes.

ab_mach1 · 04-23-2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmhutch

Yes, you can run the stock tune no problem. I personally would NOT recommend Bama.

Guys like Don LaSota at LaSota Racing, Shaun Perry at Advanced Engine Development (AED) and Jon Lund at Lund Racing are excellent tuners who will do email tunes.

Thanks for ^this.

I know I've asked on another cam thread as well, and I apologize for that.

ShakeMe · 05-27-2013, 11:21 AM

Any updates? The only thing(s) left I want to do on my car is cams/intake.

Mach828 · 08-09-2016, 04:40 PM

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Tmhutch states that installing cobra cams at 108 will kill the top end power. I'm assuming he means just advancing the intake cams. Here are the details for the cobra cams at 108/114 and the stock mach cams at 114/114. I'm trying to understand how cam timing and duration affect the power band. Not sure either Todd is active on here any more. I'm trying to picture how the engine looks through a full cycle with both of these at various rpms.

Mach828 · 08-09-2016, 05:07 PM

This video is really helpful on valve events

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2X3VUwADA

na svt · 08-09-2016, 06:10 PM

Advancing the intake cams will reduce power up top. Where you install the intake cams needs to coincide with the rear gears, shift point and where you want power increased in the powerband. The exh cam LCs also play a part in the powercurve shape.

Mach828 · 08-09-2016, 06:39 PM

Just guessing..if you could confirm Todd I'd appreciate the insight.

I'd imagine with a centri like I have, then you would want the intake valve to close as late as possible because the higher the rpms the more air flow. At the same time the higher the piston travels to TDC the more resistance the blower will see trying to feed air in but the higher the head flows as the lift increases. There would not be much benefit to advancing the intake cams for low end power as it would kill top end and my trap speed. I'll have a 4,000 rpm stall and all I care about is getting down the 1/4 as quick/fast as possible.

I can see how with high flowing heads adding duration helps add power. When your working with limited duration like the mach cams or cobra cams, I'm guessing the cam timing drastically alters the power band vs. cams with closer to 230* of duration.

na svt · 08-10-2016, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mach828

Just guessing..if you could confirm Todd I'd appreciate the insight.

I'd imagine with a centri like I have, then you would want the intake valve to close as late as possible because the higher the rpms the more air flow. At the same time the higher the piston travels to TDC the more resistance the blower will see trying to feed air in but the higher the head flows as the lift increases. There would not be much benefit to advancing the intake cams for low end power as it would kill top end and my trap speed. I'll have a 4,000 rpm stall and all I care about is getting down the 1/4 as quick/fast as possible.

I can see how with high flowing heads adding duration helps add power. When your working with limited duration like the mach cams or cobra cams, I'm guessing the cam timing drastically alters the power band vs. cams with closer to 230* of duration.

Any stock cam will be power limited when compared to those with 230 degrees.

With a 4k stall, put the cams in at their stock LCs (119/110).

04-23-2013, 12:33 PM	#27
tmhutch 4v>3v>2v Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 727	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP I think you guys might be missing the point. This isnt to compare peak numbers this is to illustrate why we dont want to run Cobra cams (especially Mach cams) at a 108 ICL. Cobra cams are designed to improve power between 5000 - 7000 RPM. Installing them at 108 ICL kills power in that range. Might as well save the time and effort, and keep the Mach cams. If we took Cobra cammed cars at 108 ICL and compared them to Mach cammed cars, all with the same mods, the curves would be near identical and no benefit would be seen from the Cobra cams. Heres an example. Below is the same condensed graph as above with 4 Machs running stock cams added to it. Notice the stock Mach 1's all track almost identical paths with the Cobra cammed cars of NA SVT and USCSTEW. The Cobra cammed cars should be up 20 - 30 lb ft tq between 5000 - 7000 RPM but there is very little differentiation between them because the 108 ICL kills power up top (this does not hold true for larger cams). Heres the raw numbers with usernames. You guys can look them up or I'll post the graphs later today: Hope that helps.

04-23-2013, 01:54 PM	#28
Bmeagher Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cowtown, Alberta Posts: 1,261	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP The Cobra cammed cars should be up 20 - 30 lb ft tq between 5000 - 7000 RPM but there is very little differentiation between them because the 108 ICL kills power up top (this does not hold true for larger cams). Heres the raw numbers with usernames. You guys can look them up or I'll post the graphs later today: Hope that helps.[/QUOTE] Mine should be in the mix there, I'm ahead of everyone else from 5000 up! When I had cobra cams __________________ Maximum Motorsports race series shocks/struts, coilovers front and rear, K member, bump steer kit, solid steering shaft, Panhard bar. Built Rear End with 4.30's, Hooker longtubes, Comp 106100's, Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel, Centerforce DF, *FR500 intaked 1/2" Spacer, Livernois Springs, Ford GT Followers in the works.* *SAE 378RWHP ,302 ft/lbs* 70-120mph run http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqjiOeYWAE

04-23-2013, 03:07 PM	#29
tmhutch 4v>3v>2v Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 727	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP In the first graph I didnt want short runner intakes or anything else that enhanced high RPM power. I only wanted to show the benefits of Cobra cams at high lobe centers. The second graph adds only cars with off road pipe (or high flow cats), catback (or mufflers welded in), air filter and in some cases a tune. No Cobra cams, no headers, no ported intakes, no pulleys etc. This was to illustrate that Cobra cams @ 108 ICL dont provide any benefit over stock Mach cams. From a purely technical standpoint the outcome I'm illustrating is straight forward but cam timing is a pretty challenging subject so I wanted to show real life results from people right here on this forum. Your car was a real animal with that Naz short runner, and I know a lot of people including myself are really looking forward to your results with the springs, GT followers and FR500. And the ability REV!

04-23-2013, 04:45 PM	#30
ab_mach1 Lorraine's driver Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,442	If you degree your stock cams, should you run the stock ECU tune? Once you get this completed, can you proceed with email tunes like from Bama, etc? __________________ Instagram: @azurblumach1 SCT X3 with LaSota Racing tune Borla Stingers w/JBA off road H pipe MGW short shifter w/comfort handle Eibach Sportlines w/Koni STR.T's and Maximum Motorsports CC plates

04-23-2013, 05:19 PM	#31
tmhutch 4v>3v>2v Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 727	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP Yes, you can run the stock tune no problem. I personally would NOT recommend Bama. Guys like Don LaSota at LaSota Racing, Shaun Perry at Advanced Engine Development (AED) and Jon Lund at Lund Racing are excellent tuners who will do email tunes.

05-27-2013, 11:21 AM	#33
ShakeMe Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: TX. Posts: 2,511	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP Any updates? The only thing(s) left I want to do on my car is cams/intake. __________________ 03 Mach DSG Build Date 07/25/03 Feb 09 N2O 10.91 @ 124.21(1.55 60ft) Feb 09 NA 11.85 @ 112.87 (1.60 60ft)

08-09-2016, 04:40 PM	#34
Mach828 Dark Knight Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 5,759	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP Bringing this thread back from the dead. Tmhutch states that installing cobra cams at 108 will kill the top end power. I'm assuming he means just advancing the intake cams. Here are the details for the cobra cams at 108/114 and the stock mach cams at 114/114. I'm trying to understand how cam timing and duration affect the power band. Not sure either Todd is active on here any more. I'm trying to picture how the engine looks through a full cycle with both of these at various rpms. __________________ Vortech V2 S-trim, E85, A2A Treadstone, Comp cams, built engine, full exhaust, built rear, built 4r70, more mods. Tuned by me with SCT Advantage

08-09-2016, 05:07 PM	#35
Mach828 Dark Knight Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 5,759	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP This video is really helpful on valve events https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2X3VUwADA __________________ Vortech V2 S-trim, E85, A2A Treadstone, Comp cams, built engine, full exhaust, built rear, built 4r70, more mods. Tuned by me with SCT Advantage

08-09-2016, 06:10 PM	#36
na svt Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: beavercreek, oh Posts: 4,695	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP Advancing the intake cams will reduce power up top. Where you install the intake cams needs to coincide with the rear gears, shift point and where you want power increased in the powerband. The exh cam LCs also play a part in the powercurve shape. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/groups/481330828691064/

08-09-2016, 06:39 PM	#37
Mach828 Dark Knight Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 5,759	Re: Degreeing stock cams - info needed ASAP Just guessing..if you could confirm Todd I'd appreciate the insight. I'd imagine with a centri like I have, then you would want the intake valve to close as late as possible because the higher the rpms the more air flow. At the same time the higher the piston travels to TDC the more resistance the blower will see trying to feed air in but the higher the head flows as the lift increases. There would not be much benefit to advancing the intake cams for low end power as it would kill top end and my trap speed. I'll have a 4,000 rpm stall and all I care about is getting down the 1/4 as quick/fast as possible. I can see how with high flowing heads adding duration helps add power. When your working with limited duration like the mach cams or cobra cams, I'm guessing the cam timing drastically alters the power band vs. cams with closer to 230* of duration. __________________ Vortech V2 S-trim, E85, A2A Treadstone, Comp cams, built engine, full exhaust, built rear, built 4r70, more mods. Tuned by me with SCT Advantage

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