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Old 01-29-2008, 10:14 PM   #76
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

The determining factor between the science versus real-life arguement is that science does not use rev-happy, crappy drivers as test subjects, but rather assumes the drivers are perfectly nutty old men and lead-footed youngsters(I) who bought this car to push it to the limits. The engine is built with that in mind, and an attempt to disrupt how the internals function is plain ol' stupid.
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:15 PM   #77
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Cool Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Underdrive pullies are bad enough sad!



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Old 01-29-2008, 11:33 PM   #78
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Alright, now that I posted my fictional exchange about the Tornado Air. Here's the thread from July of 2006 where I was burned at the stake on the corral for calling Underdrive pullies being responsible for oil pump gear failure an Internet Myth. Boy was it a fun exchange...

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...=internet+myth

It's funny how history repeats itself, eh? Humans are definitely creatures of habit... lol

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Old 01-29-2008, 11:54 PM   #79
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I sat and absorbed every page of information on that forum and yet they gave you the same lame excuse with no proof (oh theres that word again). The answers that were drawn up were just sad. Especially coming from a well known "respected" engine builder.

You bestow a solid point LXH89 with that fictional story you posted. Makes you wonder, right?

"An engineer speculating without having definitive proof and testing to corroborate is no better than my grandma speculating as to the cause. Sure, it's probable but no reason to throw it out like it's fact." :LAUGH:

This is exactly why it shouldn't be considered a valid statement.
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:59 PM   #80
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Need a match under your azz?
Lets not get violent now fellas. This is only a dispute. I believe we've evolved and learned how to communicate efficiently without disregard towards one another, right?
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:06 AM   #81
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Lets not get violent now fellas. This is only a dispute. I believe we've evolved and learned how to communicate efficiently without disregard towards one another, right?
Bill's a good guy. He's smart enough to recognize the points being made. I know he's teasing... he likes stirring the pot to see what happens for entertainment.

I mean, don't those Naval nuclear engineers have to be smart? Don't hold it against him that at night time he glows. It's not his fault..

Tony
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:18 AM   #82
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Bill's a good guy. He's smart enough to recognize the points being made. I know he's teasing... he likes stirring the pot to see what happens for entertainment.

I mean, don't those Naval nuclear engineers have to be smart? Don't hold it against him that at night time he glows. It's not his fault..

Tony
okay.
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:35 AM   #83
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Quack quack quack
Waddle waddle waddle
Orange sauce orange sauce orange sauce!

...lol
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Old 02-29-2008, 11:44 PM   #84
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Quack quack quack
Waddle waddle waddle
Orange sauce orange sauce orange sauce!
you been smokin killer dro?
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:42 AM   #85
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

The only reason anyone would argue the case for underdrive pulleys is if they got off on arguing for the sake of arguing or, if they or someone they know has a vested financial interest. Nobody here has the time, resources or desire to put a set of pullies through a 10 point failure analysy. Making decisions without knowing every detail is what grown ups have to do every day. We cant be experts in every field so we rely on experts.

People have measured Steeda pullies and found them to be out of round. People have swapped from Steeda's to other brands and noticed reduced vibration from the engine. And Steeda underdrive pulleys have been the most logical culprit in a series of oil pump failures. Anybody who needs a 10 point failure analysys to disuade them from using Steedas has been hit one to many times with the stupid stick.

Were not sending men to the moon, were simply trying to decide if an extra 5 horsepower is worth risking the destruction or our engine when several comparable, but clearly safe options exist. Do we REALLY need to build a case defending Steeda pullies?

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Old 03-03-2008, 07:13 PM   #86
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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"Now on to the next topic of discussion, I want to tell you all about the Tornado Air. According to a well known mechanic named Sam Memmolo, co-host of Two Guys Garage, he supports the product. Clearly this is an indication of the validity and worthiness of the product.

Also, please don't complicate this discussion with statistics or request of any demonstrable proof. That's quite ridiculous because you would be questioning the word of a highly respected mechanic who has his own TV show. Surely one wouldn't be that bold? Think about all the kind folks that Sam has helped over the years with their car troubles. You might hurt Sam's feelings and he'll stop his TV show and won't help us with our problems any more--only a b@stard would try such a thing! Have I mentioned only a fool would question Sam? Oh yes I did, anyways...

In addition to that supporting evidence, I also offer further proof whereby the product was tested at a CARB recognized lab demonstrating an average increase of 1 to 2mpg. Again, please don't question the test methods because you would be questioning the results from a CARB recognized lab. Only a fool would do that!

Also, did I mention Sam's a great guy and would help anyone? Only a jerk would question him. We all know he's got more knowledge in one hair folicle than the sum of all people who ever lived aggregated and multiplied by a factor of 1,000,000. Therefore questioning Sam's opinion is a sure sign of how feeble minded you are. But anyways, back to the topic...."

In all seriousness, that characterization very well represents some of the positions I have seen taken on this topic. As ridiculous as the above scenario sounds, there are many parallels to some of the arguments I've seen made on the topic of underdrive pullies.

Tony
Doesn't he get paid to make that show? And wouldn't somebody benefit from paying him to say something works, whether it did or not? Some people like to watch those TV evangelicals too, send us your money and we'll make sure you get into heaven... I don't believe them either... Maybe i'm the fool
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:27 AM   #87
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I know this is a little late in posting... but this is a subject I've done a LOT of research on.

...and I have a very simple answer to why you don't hear much about the negatives of UD pulleys.

So many people swear by them, just like people swear by K&N, etc... but how often do you hear anything negative about them? And for the negative side effects, why don't you hear much about the negatives?

Because people spend a lot of money on such small mods, they don't want to openly admit they made a bad choice. Case in point: My K&N SUCKS. Literally and figuratively. It's not the best aftermarket CAI you can buy. I immediately started experiencing issues with stalling after installing it. Some other forum members here have talked about it. But I'm certain there are a larger number of people out there that refuse to say anything bad about it. They'll swear by it, knowing full well they've purchased garbage, just as I have.

As for the positives mentioned... ironically, the only things I see are an occasional honest opinion about how much of a gain someone got out of the install. And of course the unGodly amount of blasphemous overexaggerations of gains that only a supercharger install could rival.

Even with other bolt-ons, I'm sorry, but the gains aren't going to be multiplied. An intake spacer gaining you 4 HP isn't going to multiply your 3 HP gain from UD pulleys to 12 HP. You might get 7, and woohoo.

People are entirely too stubborn to admit that some things simply aren't worth it. Since they've spent money on it, they try to convince other people to spend money on it. If someone duped you into spending $300 on a bag of garbage, I'm sure you'd feel better about yourself if someone else did the same thing. I know I'd be thinking, "Thank God I'm not the only one in the world who made a bad choice."

Bottom line... a lot of the people on this forum have been at this with these particular cars since they first started shipping 'em out over 5 years ago. If they advise against doing something to it, I'm pretty sure their level of experiences with these matters is worth taking into serious consideration over false "scientific" statistics (due to consumer misinformation based on shame).
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:40 AM   #88
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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I know this is a little late in posting... but this is a subject I've done a LOT of research on.

...and I have a very simple answer to why you don't hear much about the negatives of UD pulleys.

So many people swear by them, just like people swear by K&N, etc... but how often do you hear anything negative about them? And for the negative side effects, why don't you hear much about the negatives?

Because people spend a lot of money on such small mods, they don't want to openly admit they made a bad choice. Case in point: My K&N SUCKS. Literally and figuratively. It's not the best aftermarket CAI you can buy. I immediately started experiencing issues with stalling after installing it. Some other forum members here have talked about it. But I'm certain there are a larger number of people out there that refuse to say anything bad about it. They'll swear by it, knowing full well they've purchased garbage, just as I have.

As for the positives mentioned... ironically, the only things I see are an occasional honest opinion about how much of a gain someone got out of the install. And of course the unGodly amount of blasphemous overexaggerations of gains that only a supercharger install could rival.

Even with other bolt-ons, I'm sorry, but the gains aren't going to be multiplied. An intake spacer gaining you 4 HP isn't going to multiply your 3 HP gain from UD pulleys to 12 HP. You might get 7, and woohoo.

People are entirely too stubborn to admit that some things simply aren't worth it. Since they've spent money on it, they try to convince other people to spend money on it. If someone duped you into spending $300 on a bag of garbage, I'm sure you'd feel better about yourself if someone else did the same thing. I know I'd be thinking, "Thank God I'm not the only one in the world who made a bad choice."

Bottom line... a lot of the people on this forum have been at this with these particular cars since they first started shipping 'em out over 5 years ago. If they advise against doing something to it, I'm pretty sure their level of experiences with these matters is worth taking into serious consideration over false "scientific" statistics (due to consumer misinformation based on shame).
Very well stated. I agree in full. This is human psychology at its best, also its human nature to better things and improve its surroundings (yes even cars), and they may do so in vein at times and are even less likely to be truthful with them selves much less other people. So I guess what the poster above is saying is that just because somebody gives a +1 to something doesn't mean thats the fact, thats just simply what they believe to be true and in all actuality may in fact be to the contrary. This is where Imperial/Historical data helps, but when even this is skewed by human psychology it becomes useless. LOL, so where does this leave us? Square one. LOL, we need some unbiased test results here. Any brave enough to wanna risk their engine?
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:54 PM   #89
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Very well stated. I agree in full. This is human psychology at its best, also its human nature to better things and improve its surroundings (yes even cars), and they may do so in vein at times and are even less likely to be truthful with them selves much less other people. So I guess what the poster above is saying is that just because somebody gives a +1 to something doesn't mean thats the fact, thats just simply what they believe to be true and in all actuality may in fact be to the contrary. This is where Imperial/Historical data helps, but when even this is skewed by human psychology it becomes useless. LOL, so where does this leave us? Square one. LOL, we need some unbiased test results here. Any brave enough to wanna risk their engine?
Same rules apply for the hypothesis that was made regarding UDP and Oil pump failures.

Last edited by mach007; 03-04-2008 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:58 PM   #90
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

OK now I'm confused. Did NASA or Einstein put a K&N filter and UDP on their car?
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:03 PM   #91
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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OK now I'm confused. Did NASA or Einstein put a K&N filter and UDP on their car?
hahaha, Yes they did. Except what they used is way better than K&N and UDP's


For those of you who thought this was serious.... Its not. It was merely a poor attempt at humor.
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:06 PM   #92
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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hahaha, Yes they did. Except what they used is way better than K&N and UDP's

So you still consider UDP's as a culprit? I beg to differ on that. Theres more to this than meets the eye. Its a vague suggestion that has this community in a civil war.
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:11 PM   #93
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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So you still consider UDP's as a culprit? I beg to differ on that. Theres more to this than meets the eye. Its a vague suggestion that has this community in a civil war.
I don't know one way or the other. Thats what i'm here to find out...
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:01 AM   #94
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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So you still consider UDP's as a culprit? I beg to differ on that. Theres more to this than meets the eye. Its a vague suggestion that has this community in a civil war.
Attempting to shroud the issue in mystery is a new approach. You must be getting desperate in the absence of any sensible defense for UDP's.
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:34 PM   #95
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Attempting to shroud the issue in mystery is a new approach. You must be getting desperate in the absence of any sensible defense for UDP's.
Heres an idea! Collect the data through observation and experimentation, than formulate and test the hypothesis and surprise us with the outcome.

"People observe what they expect to observe, until shown otherwise; our beliefs will affect our observations (and therefore our subsequent actions). The purpose of the scientific method is to test a hypothesis, a belief about how things are, via repeatable experimental observations which can contradict the hypothesis so as to fight this observer bias."

Last edited by hawk; 03-08-2008 at 12:33 AM. Reason: removed personal attack
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:34 PM   #96
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Old 03-06-2008, 06:27 PM   #97
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Heres an idea! Collect the data through observation and experimentation, than formulate and test the hypothesis and surprise us with the outcome.

"People observe what they expect to observe, until shown otherwise; our beliefs will affect our observations (and therefore our subsequent actions). The purpose of the scientific method is to test a hypothesis, a belief about how things are, via repeatable experimental observations which can contradict the hypothesis so as to fight this observer bias."
LOL, don’t cry because I called you on your crap. You displayed a misunderstanding of the issue from your first post and resorting to vague references and name calling only reinforces the fact that you are desperate to assert knowledge in an area of which you are not familiar.

There is an appropriate time and place to apply the processes that you speak of. However, nobody here has the time, resources or desire to put a set of pullies through a 10 point failure analysis.

Making decisions without applying a 10 point analysis every time is what grownups have to do every day. There are times when we have to rely on our own personal experience and the observations of experts in the field. Deciding on whether or not to risk destroying several thousand dollars worth of equipment for 4 – 5 horsepower is one of those times. I suspect at some point in your life you will realize this.

And stop referring to “us”. There is no “us”. It’s just YOU ignoring post after post of common sense. The only reason people continue to respond to you is because you are misleading a lot of otherwise well intended enthusiast into believing UDP’s are completely safe in a high revving DOHC engine.

All this time spent arguing a moot point should be focused on contributing something useful to the community, not destructive. If all you want to do is win an argument regardless of facts, choose something that doesn’t have potentially damaging and costly results for others.

At your request I will repeat what I, and others have already said. Not for your sake because you are sure to ignore the facts, but for those who don’t have time to read 5 pages of denial.

Observation 1: Steeda underdrive pullies have been measured and found to be out of round.
Observation 2: It has been “observed” that engine vibration has decreased when Steeda underdrives were replaced with the proper size.
Observation 3: Oil pump drive surfaces on DOHC crankshafts have shown damage from increased harmonics when underdrive pullies were used.

This is called “circumstantial evidence”. It is often used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through REASONING. Reasoning is something you need to polish up on. If it is considered credible enough to send someone to the gas chamber than I think we can reasonably rely on it to decide whether or not to use a set of underdrive pulleys on a Mustang.

Todd

Last edited by hawk; 03-08-2008 at 12:39 AM. Reason: removed personal attack
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Old 03-08-2008, 12:41 AM   #98
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Folks, I know this topic is somewhat "religious" but let's keep it on track, ok?

And I request that anyone cutting and pasting large quotes from other sources please credit those sources with a URL.
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:28 PM   #99
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

wouldn't the simple solution to this be to just upgrade the oil pump at the same time?? or is that too "scientific" for all of you guys??
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:15 PM   #100
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Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

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Ummmmmmm...................do you have any idea what you must do to install an oil pump? ............or is that too "scientific" for you?
dang you just got told.
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