NASCAR thread

[birdman941]

And NAPA.
$50 in sales..............................

[03mach69mach]

Reuitman
Ragan
Riggs
Yeley
Gilliland
Sorrenson
Raines

Who are these guys? They may have big sponsors, but not the biggest and can't deliver the Face or name brand (like Earnhardt or Gordon) with the sponsor for Nascar. Have any of them won a Winston/Nextel cup race? Do they have a chance week in and week out.

Earnhardt Jr.- well, Nascar has done the best they can do to change the championship series to allow him a chance to win, including adding a couple more spots to the Sprint. He is a great guy, with lots of sponsor appeal and very popular, so Nascar loves him.

Montoya- Bring on the hispanic market share and all the new potential Nascar fans. Amazing how he won the race in Mexico?!

Jarrett, Green & Rudd (Martin & Waltrip)- Old guys in the twilight of their careers who can retain sponsors on what they have done, but have little chance win week in and out.

Several instances come to mind that lead you to believe that Nascar can alter or shift competition. I like to call it that as cheating or fixing sounds so harsh.

Look all the way back to July 4th, 1984 needing one more win to get 200, with President Reagan present, Petty 'wins' 200. Wins no more races although drives until 1992 (btw, Petty's last race was Gordon's first). Imagine the odds.

Or how about after 20 years of being the bridesmaid, in 1998 Dale Earnhardt wins the one race that has eluded him his entire career.

Micheal Waltrip, after having never won a race (and at the time, the longest loosing streak) wins the first race of his career & with DEI. What are the odds?!

Or how about Indy boy Gordon wins inagural Brickyard 400 in 1994. Imagine the odds.
Or how California born Golden boy Gordon wins the inagural California race in 1997, wow.

A whole lot of amazing finishes that grew the audience and following along the way. Imagine how boring each week would be if you had Ruetmann, Yaley, Sorrenson & Ragan winning. Imagine the television ratings and how they would plummett (remember that there are a lot of commercials to pay for the Nascar television contract). Tony Stupi- Stewart is the only guy with the kahoneys to speak the truth. Watch if he wins a race this year after the Nascar comment. He might, but my bet is he won't.

Now, if Nascar could only teach Hulk Hogan to shift gears, can you imagine how many viewers you could attract!

[Blackpony04]

Am I the only one thinking the Chevys have a distinct advantage with the COT? I know Hendricks and Gibbs are great teams but there isn't a Ford or a Dodge with more than 20 laps led over 4 races! And Ford finally broke it's streak of 1 lap led yesterday when Kenseth led during green flag pitstops...

Also, I love short tracks the best (especially at night) but this year both Bristol and Richmond were stinkers. I was totally bored yesterday to the point that I actually watched the movie Ultraviolet on HBO during half the race (if that doesn't spell desperate I don't know what does cuz that movie sucked!).

[03mach69mach]

Sorry for the long rant. Just my .02 from a Nascar fan from back in the day. I miss the old days. It's just not the same and for me (and maybe not most of you) it's not better.

And yes, I was a huge fan. I grew up listening to Nascar on the AM radio Sunday afternoons with my dad. My oldest son was born the year we lost Davey Allison & Alan Kulwicki. His name is David Alan in honor of two of the best drivers ever.

Go ahead, wear me out

[machths]

Originally Posted by birdman941

And NAPA.
$50 in sales..............................

Is that just from you today?

[birdman941]

Yeah but I returned it for a refund.

[G]

Originally Posted by 03mach69mach

Jarrett, Green & Rudd (Martin & Waltrip)- Old guys in the twilight of their careers who can retain sponsors on what they have done, but have little chance win week in and out.

can you imagine how many viewers you could attract!

Martin is always a possible winner!!!! Have you been watching the races this year.

[03mach69mach]

When Martin left Ford, he became a loser to me. And he proves the point that Nascar helps teams out. Let me get this straight, he leaves a proven team with resources, money & sponsorship for a team that didn't exist last year, that put together his deal in like 6 months w/ Chevrolet and almost won Daytona for the first time. If that had happened, you could add that to the other against all odds that I posted earlier. Come on people, you don't believe that Martins team is that much better or is he a better driver than the last 20 years?

Everybody is entitled to thier oppinion, mine is the same as Tony Stewart's. Ouch, that hurt to say that!

[gvervoren]

Why is it when Roush was dominating a couple years back like mentioned before, I didn't hear anyone say that NASCAR was playing favorites. Now that the Hendrick organization is doing the exact same thing 2 years later, people are saying that NASCAR is playing favorites with the Hendricks team. Yes money does drive this sport. I won't argue with that. BUT, when it was mentioned about Martin doing so well this year, you have to remember, they did a lot of changes on the team as well. They moved people around and it is basically a completly different team then it was last year. You see that alot in that the Roush camp. A couple of teams might be struggling pretty bad. They move a few people around or change crew chiefs an BAM, that team is kicking butt again. So in other words, you really say it is strictly the money that wins races cause there are some pretty well financed teams not doing so hot. Take Ryan Newman for instance, Penske has plenty of cash and Newman has a great sponsor, yet he is not been doing to well the last couple of years.

[gvervoren]

What really sucks is that I missed the entire race this weekend.

[birdman941]

ASSCAR has stuck it up Jack Roush's rear end since day 1.
Remember who the REAL 90 champion was supposed to be.
They used to kiss Ironhead's rear end, now they kiss the convicted felon's. (Hendrick)

[falcongtho3]

I thought about the Roush 'domination' as it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Roush, nor any of the non-Chevy teams, has been anything close to dominant. If you recall one of the most controversial championships was when a Roush driver won it all, but with only one victory on the season. They were consistent but not dominant. Suddenly the format changed and we get the 'Chase'.

[G]

Originally Posted by falcongtho3

I thought about the Roush 'domination' as it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Roush, nor any of the non-Chevy teams, has been anything close to dominant. If you recall one of the most controversial championships was when a Roush driver won it all, but with only one victory on the season. They were consistent but not dominant. Suddenly the format changed and we get the 'Chase'.

I used to say the same thing --- then the same guys that talked to Tony Stewart came to talk to me.

Be careful guys, they will send someone to whack ya.

[03mach69mach]

You are right, every time Roush or a Ford starts to win consistently, historically Nascar has changed rules, format or both. Ask Bill Elliott about how Nascar instituted rules that only applied to him after all the changes to Ford cars did not slow him down. Or how we have to change the format because a driver can't win only one race and win the championship. Or how we need to look at the Chase as there must be something wrong when one owner can get 5 cars out of the top 10 (remember that owners can only have so many cars or the Roush rule).

There is no secret why Toyota has been allowed to enter Nascar. They are the number 2, soon to be number 1 Auto Manufacturer in the world. Watch how fast Dodge & Ford get passed by the Toyota cars once COT is fully in gear. It won't happen this year, but give it time. Look at this thread next year at this time & see if the worm is turning. GM had better get used to the idea that they will become second dog in Nascar, cause money talks and less money is not acceptable to Nascar. Sorry, I mean Nacar cause their won't be Stock in COT.

Sorry again about the rant. I am harboring some very hard feelings about what Nascar has become & I am getting help for it......NHRA drag racing!!

[falcongtho3]

It's funny that the 'old' Chase format was for 10 cars. Not that Stewart didn't even make that, but had a great run in the last part of the season it's magically become 12 cars. I guess Tony forgot about that part when he was slamming NASCAR for its morphing of the rules. (Stewart was 11th last season when the Chase started)
I'm thinking about defecting to the Grand Am series or something that somehow actually does replicate the old Trans Am series. Something that approximates actual stock cars on a track. What a concept...

[machths]

Originally Posted by falcongtho3

I thought about the Roush 'domination' as it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Roush, nor any of the non-Chevy teams, has been anything close to dominant. If you recall one of the most controversial championships was when a Roush driver won it all, but with only one victory on the season. They were consistent but not dominant. Suddenly the format changed and we get the 'Chase'.

Wrong! Roush has been plenty dominant over the years. Name one other team that's owned half of the top 10 in points at years end. Funny you bring up the introduction to the Chase, because that was Gordon's 5th championship under the old system. Thanks to the new Chase format, Gordon's 5th championship was handed to...



...oh yeah, Kurt Busch from ROUSH RACING.

I've learned a lot from you Falcon over the last few years, but what you posted above is wrong and just plain silly. Jimmy Johnson has been great over the last few years, but the rest of Hendrick's teams have had their struggles. Now, the whole organization seems to be firing on all cylinders, much like Roush was a couple years back, but it's still early in the season and they have a long way to go. Teams surge, and if they're properly managed, they can have a 2-5 year stretch where they can always be in the headlines (in a positive way Tony Stewart), week after week, year after year. That seems to be consistent in most sports. The Dallas Cowboys, Pittsburgh Steelers, Detroit Red Wings, New Jersey Devils, Chicago Bulls, LA Lakers, New York Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals. That's just the nature of sports. I think the problem with Roush Racing is that they have a stable of really good drivers, but not great drivers. Then again, maybe contests and reality shows aren't the best way to pick your next driver.

[falcongtho3]

Glad you've read and enjoyed some of me few postings, buy wrong and silly? I think not. Roush didn't have near the victories in races that Hendricks, DEI, Gibbs or any of the other teams had that year, but won a champoinship anyway. Despite NASCARs best efforts to the contrary. So, we get the Chase. Roush gets mutiple cars in the Chase? Quick, cut the amount of teams any one owner can have! It's interersting that not only is Chevy dominant with the COT, but also (and this has only been quietly mentioned so far) their new engine package is seemingly putting them at the front as well in the old cars. NASCAR has been very slow to react to this, whereas when Awsome Bill was running with the new design Ford heads on his car, which did trickle down to the other Ford teams, got them spoiler changes really quick. NASCAR can't change the actual oucome of a race (or can they?), but they can 'guide' the rules to a favorable outcome which favors their desired outcome. (e.i., They can give JJ or Gordon bigger restrictor plate openings, but they can't stop a Turn 4 melee which takes out one or more or the golden children) The Roush driver I was refering to was not Kurt Bush, but Matt Kenseth. Kurt had 3 victories in his championship season in 2004, whereas Matt only had ONE victory, held the top spot in the rankings from the fourth race on and had to use 7 provisionals to make his dream season happen in 2003 He was consistent, not dominant. If you want wrong and silly, check your facts.
I do understand the ebb and flow of sports, and this is a sport. I remember the domination of the Miami Dolphins, the Dallas Cowboys, and the S.F 49ers, but now we live in a world where the hot team is...(dare I say it?) the New Orleans Saints! And everyone's concerned about global warming...

[04VAMach1]

Originally Posted by machths

Wrong! Roush has been plenty dominant over the years. Name one other team that's owned half of the top 10 in points at years end. Funny you bring up the introduction to the Chase, because that was Gordon's 5th championship under the old system. Thanks to the new Chase format, Gordon's 5th championship was handed to...



...oh yeah, Kurt Busch from ROUSH RACING.

You missed the point...Matt Kenseth won the last championship prior to the chase by winning only one race the entire season. He won by being consistent. NASCAR changed the rules and introduced the chase...that is when Kurt Busch won. NASCAR made some more adjustments and Roush still managed to get all 5 drivers into the chase. I wouldn't say they were dominant because they weren't winning every weekend, only consistent.

Keep in mind that Jack Roush is still the only car owner who has had points taken away after winning a race...which ended up being more than the margin that the championship was handed to Dale Earnhardt.

The point is that NASCAR has never been happy about Roush being involved and has done everything they can to push him away. He just happens to be a stubborn, old man with enough money to push back. Unfortunately, NASCAR makes up the rules that he was to play by. If Mark Martin had driven for any other team, he would have had several championships.

[machths]

Originally Posted by falcongtho3

Glad you've read and enjoyed some of me few postings, buy wrong and silly? I think not. Roush didn't have near the victories in races that Hendricks, DEI, Gibbs or any of the other teams had that year, but won a champoinship anyway. Despite NASCARs best efforts to the contrary. So, we get the Chase. Roush gets mutiple cars in the Chase? Quick, cut the amount of teams any one owner can have! It's interersting that not only is Chevy dominant with the COT, but also (and this has only been quietly mentioned so far) their new engine package is seemingly putting them at the front as well in the old cars. NASCAR has been very slow to react to this, whereas when Awsome Bill was running with the new design Ford heads on his car, which did trickle down to the other Ford teams, got them spoiler changes really quick. NASCAR can't change the actual oucome of a race (or can they?), but they can 'guide' the rules to a favorable outcome which favors their desired outcome. (e.i., They can give JJ or Gordon bigger restrictor plate openings, but they can't stop a Turn 4 melee which takes out one or more or the golden children) The Roush driver I was refering to was not Kurt Bush, but Matt Kenseth. Kurt had 3 victories in his championship season in 2004, whereas Matt only had ONE victory, held the top spot in the rankings from the fourth race on and had to use 7 provisionals to make his dream season happen in 2003 He was consistent, not dominant. If you want wrong and silly, check your facts.
I do understand the ebb and flow of sports, and this is a sport. I remember the domination of the Miami Dolphins, the Dallas Cowboys, and the S.F 49ers, but now we live in a world where the hot team is...(dare I say it?) the New Orleans Saints! And everyone's concerned about global warming...

I see what you're saying, but if Chevy's were getting all of this preferential treatment, then wouldn't Jr. be up there as well? After all, he is NASCAR's number one driver with the fans. What's been his problem this year? Jimmie Johnson has been the face of Hendrick Motorsports the last few years, not Jeff Gordon. Jimmie wasn't bought by Hendrick. Jimmie came to Jeff to beg him for a shot. Jeff saw something he liked in JJ and now they're probably the best 1-2 combo in NASCAR. Is that so shocking that a team with Hendrick's resources, and the greatest active driver would create another great team rather than a team filled with mediocrity? Every time there is a sport-wide car change, one manufacturer seems to perform a little better as a whole, every time. To suggest that NASCAR is helping Hendrick or Gibbs win though. They can, but I don't think they do. Gordon has always made aggressive moves to put him in the hunt at the end of the day, and Knaus has made some gutsy calls to get Jimmie in the show at race's end. Tony Stewart and Junior, although I can't stand either one of them, consistently make mind-blowing moves to get to the front. Ford teams had those types of drivers in Ryan Newman and Kurt Busch. Not anymore. Help me out here...who does Ford have now that is known for taking risks, making gutsy calls and putting it all on the line for one race. There's got to be someone, but I can't think of anyone at the moment. Ford racing teams need charisma and personality. The NFL is a good example. When I watched pro football, I chose to watch NFC games, because I found the AFC games to be dull and boring. Well, in NASCAR, the Chevy and Dodge teams have the exciting drivers with personality, and Ford teams are generally boring. Elliott Sadler is the exception. What an awesome guy to listen to in an interview and just a good, decent person. Unfortunately, also not known for making the race winning moves needed to be a consistent winner. The problem with the idea of NASCAR dictating who wins is that they have to convince 42 other people to see that it happens. Not likely. I do feel that they throw unnecessary cautions with 10 laps or less on a weekly basis to massage and manipulate an outcome. I agree with that 100%.

[falcongtho3]

I agree with a great deal of what you said, except now Sadler is now a Dodge driver, having jumped ship from Yates (another little discussed ford team who's managed to qualify well this year, but underperformed otherwise) in a swirl of turmoil last year. I really did like his personality and was nothing like so many of the other cookie cutter driver personalities. I won't go on record to say that there isn't talent in the GM pits, both behind the wheel and behind the wall. But Earnhardt had often been the recipient of bad luck as well as bad management and other behind the scenes skirmishes within the company that bears his dads name. Can you imagine Jr. driving with Martins team? That would not only overshadow whatever domination that Hendrick has had, but could actually create a two car team that might actually be dominant on talent alone.
Kurt got booed when he won his championship so badly, that I don't even think Gordon could have dealt wiht that much negativity. Matt has been a great driver, consistent, but not the personality that the NASCAR powers want on the headlines. The only Ford driver that could possibly be capable of that is Mr. Backflip, Carl Edwards. With his personality on TV and his signature 'move' after a victory, if he never wins a champoinship he will still be remembered much longer than those that actually have.
On a slightly different and more somber note, my dad picked me up a NASCAR book. It's an older book and highlights driver up to the late '90's. To look through it and see the number of drivers who are no longer around is staggering. I applaud the efforts of NASCARs efforts to protect the drivers and fans, but to see those who are no longer with us reminds me that this is still a dangerous sport.

[machths]

Originally Posted by 04VAMach1

You missed the point...Matt Kenseth won the last championship prior to the chase by winning only one race the entire season. He won by being consistent. NASCAR changed the rules and introduced the chase...that is when Kurt Busch won. NASCAR made some more adjustments and Roush still managed to get all 5 drivers into the chase. I wouldn't say they were dominant because they weren't winning every weekend, only consistent.

I didn't miss the point, I simply said that I disagree. I don't think a team has to win 10 races a year to dominate and I don't think an owner has to have 15 wins a year to dominate. When you consistently have the same 2 or 3 in the top 5, I feel that level of consistency is a characteristic of domination. That's the way the points system is set up in NASCAR. The NHL is a good example. You can, in theory, make it into the playoffs by only winning 10 out of 82 games a year. How? The NHL has a points system as well giving 2 points to the winner and 0 points to the loser, unless the losing team can tie the game in regulation, sending the into OT, then losing, they still get 1 point. Therefore, losing 72 games in OT and winning 10 games would give you 92 points, which seems to be the magic number, virtually guaranteeing you a playoff spot. That said, once you get into the playoffs, you can win the championship by winning from that point on. Then, still, even if you don't win the championship every year, just consistently being there, and winning a few championships over a decade, is, to me, a symbol of domination. Always there, always a threat and winning a few. You need to remember hockey, football, basketball are all sports with 1 winner and 1 loser. Not NASCAR. NASCAR has one winner, one loser, and 41 runner-ups. Totally different definition of domination when talking about sports with multiple competitors fighting for the same win week after week.

Originally Posted by 04VAMach1

If Mark Martin had driven for any other team, he would have had several championships.

Again, I disagree. Mark Martin is an exactly what I'm talking about. He doesn't take the risks, or make the moves to win week after week or championships. He is perfectly content to "ride around" and if he happens to be in the lead when the checkered flag falls, then great.

[machths]

Originally Posted by falcongtho3

I agree with a great deal of what you said, except now Sadler is now a Dodge driver, having jumped ship from Yates (another little discussed ford team who's managed to qualify well this year, but underperformed otherwise) in a swirl of turmoil last year. I really did like his personality and was nothing like so many of the other cookie cutter driver personalities. The only Ford driver that could possibly be capable of that is Mr. Backflip, Carl Edwards. With his personality on TV and his signature 'move' after a victory, if he never wins a champoinship he will still be remembered much longer than those that actually have.

Yeah, Elliott's no longer with Ford, but he's the only Ford driver that I actually rooted for. I do really like Carl Edwards and that kid has some real talent. I just hope he gets the team and equipment he needs to be a major player.

[04VAMach1]

Originally Posted by machths

Again, I disagree. Mark Martin is an exactly what I'm talking about. He doesn't take the risks, or make the moves to win week after week or championships. He is perfectly content to "ride around" and if he happens to be in the lead when the checkered flag falls, then great.

By your own definition, Mark Martin has dominated NASCAR...he has finished in the top 10 in points all but once since 1989, finishing 2nd four times. Guess what his nickname is..."Mr. Consistency"

He is a 4 time ASA champion (3 consecutive) and 5 time IROC champion. He also has more Busch series victories than any other driver. I guess he just happens to be in the lead a lot.

[machths]

Originally Posted by 04VAMach1

By your own definition, Mark Martin has dominated NASCAR...he has finished in the top 10 in points all but once since 1989, finishing 2nd four times. Guess what his nickname is..."Mr. Consistency"

Wrong again. He has no championships, which "by my definition", as you would say, he would need at least 2 in a decade, along with his level of consistency to fit MY definition of domination. Kind of like the Atlanta Braves. They dominated the National League since the early 90's, but have by no means dominated the MLB because they only have 1 championship. If they had at least 2, then I would say they dominated the '90's.

Originally Posted by 04VAMach1

He is a 4 time ASA champion (3 consecutive) and 5 time IROC champion. He also has more Busch series victories than any other driver. I guess he just happens to be in the lead a lot.

Yes, I'm aware he is one of the most accomplished racers out there...except for in NASCAR Winston/Nextel Cup. It's sad, because he's such a great guy, and he's truly a remarkable person having to overcome what he has in his life, but he's just a little too conservative of a driver to be a dominator in Nextel Cup racing. It's far too competitive to just ride around. You've got to make things happen.

[04VAMach1]

Originally Posted by machths

Wrong again. He has no championships, which "by my definition", as you would say, he would need at least 2 in a decade, along with his level of consistency to fit MY definition of domination. Kind of like the Atlanta Braves. They dominated the National League since the early 90's, but have by no means dominated the MLB because they only have 1 championship. If they had at least 2, then I would say they dominated the '90's.

Is your last name France? Rules are changing again.