Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder (Post 1194733)

Psssssssstttttttttttttttt............COBRAS HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM!!!:smack: :23:

SAME POWDERED METAL DOO DOO!

Originally Posted by Machinls1 (Post 1194739)

So wait, you all are saying you can go buy cobra r alternator and power steering pump pullies, im guessing from a 2000, and have the same effect as underdrive pullies without the risk? Part numbers? Tuning issues? Anything else i should know on the subject?

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder (Post 1194836)

LMMFAO................I told ya Todd.

Originally Posted by shadowmaker (Post 1194918)

While Im new to Fords and the Mach 1, I ve been around muscle cars most of my life. I think its absolutely silly to risk blowing up a $4000 motor to gain maybe 7 hp. But hey thats just me.

Originally Posted by na svt (Post 1194834)

Why is it that this subject gets everyone's blood pressure up?

Todd, Bill, Scott, we all could argue this point till we're blue in the face. Like any other mod, people are going to use it if it provide a cheap hp gain. If they want to take the risk, so be it, it's there money and their car.

Originally Posted by ModularSpeed (Post 1194945)

006

Holy rtv brother....

All you need to do, is put a dab in the keyway.....and I like to smear a very thin layer on the face of the washer......you caked that shat on!

Originally Posted by ModularSpeed (Post 1194712)

Good post Todd.

The difference between me and the people you listed.....I run UD's religiously......but will not, and have not ever sold a set to a customer with a 4V.

Some of the people/names you mentioned, don't run them.....but will sell them all day long. :3amin:

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder (Post 1194720)

Great post Todd!
Thanks for taking the time to write that and assembling things that I've told numerous times here.

But if someone replies to the contrary, they'll say all you wrote is HEARSAY.:3amin:

Originally Posted by japan4racing (Post 1194745)

fwiw hondas have the same issue. although we could use the ati and fluidamper....not sure if you guys can get them for the stang..never looked. .....since the engine builder competitivly races imports he felt confident that the motor would hold and the oil pump would not fail with those rpms and the ati damper. just a thought....worth looking into?

Originally Posted by Scott McClure (Post 1194753)

Todd, one of the best posts I've seen in a long time.....................:worship:

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder (Post 1194720)

Great post Todd!
Thanks for taking the time to write that and assembling things that I've told numerous times here.

But if someone replies to the contrary, they'll say all you wrote is HEARSAY.:3amin:

Originally Posted by na svt (Post 1194834)

Why is it that this subject gets everyone's blood pressure up?

Todd, Bill, Scott, we all could argue this point till we're blue in the face. Like any other mod, people are going to use it if it provide a cheap hp gain. If they want to take the risk, so be it, it's there money and their car.

So what about the pump gears that have failed on engines with stock dampeners? It's about 50/50 for those gears that I've seen fail and even then the number of failures are low, very low.

I've recommended the March Dampener for years and know of no one that experienced any engine damage because of them. However, when recommending them I always make it known that that of the "issues."

How many engines have been damaged by dampeners as compared to other causes, bad tunes, nitrous, superchargers, missed shifts, rod knocks due to various reasons, aggressive tunes, etc.? Most any mod carries a risk, this is just one of those risks that car owners must weigh.

As long as there are dynos there will be people willing to do anything to extract the last hp out of there combination.


Mod away people.

Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder (Post 1194836)

LMMFAO................I told ya Todd.

Originally Posted by na svt (Post 1194834)

So what about the pump gears that have failed on engines with stock dampeners? It's about 50/50 for those gears that I've seen fail and even then the number of failures are low, very low.

Originally Posted by na svt (Post 1194834)

I've recommended the March Dampener for years and know of no one that experienced any engine damage because of them. However, when recommending them I always make it known that that of the "issues."

Originally Posted by na svt (Post 1194834)

How many engines have been damaged by dampeners as compared to other causes, bad tunes, nitrous, superchargers, missed shifts, rod knocks due to various reasons, aggressive tunes, etc.? Most any mod carries a risk, this is just one of those risks that car owners must weigh.

Originally Posted by tmhutch (Post 1194703)

To put things into perspective, I've been following this topic since 2001. I can plainly state that there has been oil pump failures related to Steeda and other small diameter dampers that are too numerous to count.

Let's talk about why this happens with Cobra’s and Machs and not SOHC Mustang GT’s, 5.0’s, Camaro’s and everything else that is not a high revving DOHC Ford.

1. First are the fragile, powdered metal oil pump gears. They simply cannot take a lot of abuse.
   
2. Second is the fact that 4 camshafts and all the chains required to run them create a lot of harmonics in the crankshaft. That’s a problem.
   
3. Third is the steel crankshaft made by Kellog. It’s the kind of crank hot rodders dream of but it’s super rigid and does not absorb harmonics like a cast crank will.
   
4. Fourth is the internally balanced short block that is more susceptible to engine harmonics than an externally balanced setup.
   
5. Fifth is the manual transmission. Gear banging and no fluid filled torque converter.
   
6. Finally, the death blow for the powdered metal gears: High RPM. The DOHC in stock form performs best when shifted at the factory designated red line, 6800 RPM. Those are some pretty serious revolutions and there are a lot of harmonics created.

All these things combine to make the Ford DOHC oil pump gears uniquely susceptible to failure. As such, the oil pump gears can fail under a variety of conditions that increase crankshaft harmonics. Over revving, forced induction and yes, inferior dampers that do not adequately control harmonics.

Here is a who’s who of the nation’s top modular engine builders that recommend avoiding small size dampers like Steeda on DOHC Ford engines:

Boss 330 Racing. Al Pappito

Modular Performance. John and Mike Tymenski

Accufab Racing. John Mihovetz. NHRA AA/AT World Record Holder

Livernois Motorsports

Pauls High Performance

Sean Hyland Motorsports

VT Engines




Here is small sample of the things they’ve had to say about small diameter dampers:



































So let’s review:

If you own a Ford DOHC engine built from 1996 forward, and you rev it over 6500 RPM, every major modular engine builder in the country agrees that it is foolish to run a small diameter damper.

In addition to improper design resulting in numerous engine failures, small diameter dampers have been shown on several occasions to be out of round showing excessive run out when measured with a dial indicator. This is not only poor design but poor manufacturing and quality control. This probably contributes to the vibration many have felt at higher RPM with aftermarket, under drive dampers.



Some guidelines established by the professionals who build these unique engines are as follows:

1. The stock damper with stock powdered metal gears is good to 7,000 RPM.
   
2. The stock damper with billet gears can operate to 7,400 RPM but is not advisable.
   
3. Anything over 7,200 RPM should be running billet gears and an ATI damper.
   
4. A small diameter damper shouldn’t be run in any combination over 6,500 RPM. Billet gears will hold up with a small damper but the harmonics beat up the crankshaft drive pretty good and eventually something will fail whether the pump, a camshaft gear or the crank trigger.

Finally, let’s address some of the arguments presented by under drive, small diameter damper proponents:



Argument 1: “Show me proof!”

Answer: Idiot.



Argument 2: “I’ve run a Steeda small damper aggressively for a long time and have had no problems”

Answer: That’s not impossible. Varying production tolerances will make some oil pump gears more durable than others. Most people don’t want to find out the hard way.



Argument 3: We risk engine damage any time we install an aftermarket performance part on our cars.

Answer: In some cases that may be true but for the most part it simply is not. H-beam rods, forged pistons, hardened oil pump gears, ATI damper, billet oil pump gears, intake and exhaust mods. The list goes on and on. Even things like nitrous and supercharging are relatively safe when applied properly. And the inherent risk in their use is a little more tempting when we’re talking 100+ horsepower gains VS 3 - 5 hp for an under drive damper.



Argument 4: I’ve seen oil pumps fail with stock dampers.

Answer: Sure, it happens. The oil pumps are a marginal design from the factory. Increasing RPM beyond the factory limited 6800 RPM or installing power adders (nitrous, blowers, turbo) are just a couple examples of things that can increase engine harmonics. That is not a reason to install an inferior product that further jeopardizes your engine.



Argument 5: Most oil pump failures can be traced to improper damper installation.

Answer: Not true. What that statement is basically saying is that all the professional engine builders listed above don’t know how to install a damper. I don’t have to point out how ridiculous that is. Besides, it’s one bolt (new) torqued properly. Not rocket science. As a side note TheBlkMach1 had his damper installed by Steeda at their facility. He experienced pump failure with no other contributing factors.



Argument 6: Oil pump failures only occur on race engines or engines that are “over revved”.

Answer: Depends on your definition of “over revved”. Al Pappito plainly states that a small damper engine should not be revved over 6500 RPM. That’s a LONG way from “over revving” a DOHC engine that the factory designed to run at 6800 RPM for hours on end.



Argument 7: Steedas website says they worked with Ford to achieve the proper dampening characteristics.

Answer: That is the standard damper statement they’ve always used. It is meaningless. Fords Technology Transfer Program is available to anyone wanting to build an aftermarket part for a Ford. It can be used to obtain dimensional information as well as many other parameters.



Argument 8: Steeda has a new damper that is as heavy as the stock unit.

Answer: Weight is only one of several factors involved in producing a properly designed damper. The way they’ve distributed a bunch of the weight way out in front does not instill confidence. It's pretty tough to throw caution to the wind and blindly trust this company just because they've covertly admitted to marketing an inferior piece by completely redesigning it and quietly offering it in place of the original unit. Try calling them to ask about it. They wont admit to a re-design. Liability. It only took them 10 years. They haven’t even bothered making any claims regarding improved ability to control harmonics, let alone admitting to a re-design. Guinea pig it for them? No thank you.



In the end it boils down to whether or not 5 hp is worth the risk. Especially when nearly equal performance gains can be had by installing Cobra R pulley’s on the alternator and power steering pump. Even more by adding an electric water pump.

Todd