Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I just bought an ATI to put on my car after the A/C compressor grenaded recently. I'm hoping that the underdrive can make the new compressor last with the relatively high RPMs from my 3:90 gears and raised shift points. Up until my first stroker engine swap a couple of years ago, I ran an SLP underdrive balancer for 2 valve cars without incident.

Of course I have stated many times that I don't think automatic cars have ever been affected due to the torque converter acting as an auxilliary balancer on the rear of the crank. The lower stock redline probably doesn't hurt either.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

If you honestly want to understand this topic than you should take the time to read this thread. There is a lot of good information that will help you make a better informed decision. As to your point about engine builders, understand that it's not that they just dont use them, it's that every respected modular engine builder says NOT to use them. They advise AGAINST it. They say DONT do it. It has nothing to do with discounts or sponsorship. It is simply shared expertise coming from the people who know best.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I've been in this thread sine Page 1. Ford them selfs use under driven pulleys on the CobraR, and an under driven Crank pulley on all the CobraJet and Supersnake motors.

I haven't seen a single case of a oil pump failing that wasn't on a car that was over rev'd or wasn't on an engine that wasn't used for heavy track use. No ones shown a single daily drive/weekend racer that has had issues. All you hear is talk about engines that were built to hit 8000RPM, or people reving 7500+ on their stock pump having issues. I coant find a single thread about a person staying at 7200 or lower and having issues.

I've asked for YEARS for a thread of a weekend racer or daily driver that has had issues and was proven to be the crank pulley and NO ONE has shown me one. If anything they have been PROVEN to be safe on the street with how FEW have broken anything vs how many stock pulley s have broken pumps. Even the cars creator couldn't say it was the pulleys due to how many stock ones have broken.


So lease spread all the FUD you want, in the end pulleys breaking pumps ONLY applies to cars that are often reving past redline

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I guess you're right.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

What can I say, no ones shown me any proof that I'm wrong. You would think with all the mod motors here, corral, SVTP, and other stang sites ONE person could show me a daily that broke, nut no one can.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

it's not just the issue of oil pumps breaking. It has been said by one builder that engines with small diameter dampeners exhibit abnormal wear wear the oil pump gears contact the crank. I just tore down an engine that had a piggy back setup on it and the crank, which is cast, showed no wear. However, this maybe an anomoly, but I've not seen any wear on the engines that I've taken apart.

There are a sh1tload of people on corral, svtp and mod fords that have small diameter dampeners. This is the only site where the vast majority of members don't recommend them.

Seriously, I know only a few people that have broken oil pump gears and about half ot them had a stock dampener.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

So what it really comes down to is the mis-use of a product...:crazy: ..

1) Its ok to use UDs with an Automatic that has a lower red line.

2) UDs may be safe on a street car 5 -speed Manual as long as you dont
miss a gear or over-rev it.

3) Anyone using UDs for strickly racing should use what is told to them by their engine builder / tuner no matter what the name brand is. This info is important since they know the RPM used in the Motor build and the Tune settings !

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

i dont even understand what the point of argueing over UDP's is anymore.

the information is READILY available for both sides of the fence.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

1) Ford them selfs use under driven pulleys on the CobraR, and an under driven Crank pulley on all the CobraJet and Supersnake motors.

This is what I dont understand. You are either blatantly dis-honest or just poorly educated on the subject. I suspect the latter, and if that's the case you should express your opinion in a manner that admits limited knowledge on the subject. For those who read 305HP's statement and thought it meant something, let me clarify. The Cobra R used large accessory pullies, not a small diameter damper. Second, the CobraJet engine uses an Innovators West (same as an ATI) damper, part number M-6316-CJ, which is actually heavier, larger in diameter and provides superior damping qualities over the stock unit. It is not a small diameter unit. Not to mention, supercharged applications have no bearing on the subject at hand.



2) I haven't seen a single case of a oil pump failing that wasn't on a car that was over rev'd or wasn't on an engine that wasn't used for heavy track use.

Your limited experience means very little compared to the professionals who build engines every day. If you want proof, call them yourself. You might learn something.


3) I've asked for YEARS for a thread of a weekend racer or daily driver that has had issues and was proven to be the crank pulley and NO ONE has shown me one.

We cant help it if you havent paid attention. Nobody cares if you run a small damper, just dont try to convince the world that there is nothing to be concerned about.





1) I just tore down an engine that had a piggy back setup on it and the crank, which is cast, showed no wear.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a piggyback unit uses a stock sized/weight damper. The piggy back portion handles the under drive element of the unit. Additionally, the cast crank absorbs more torsional vibration and is a bit more forgiving in what it transmits to the oil pump gears.



1) There are a sh1tload of people on corral, svtp and mod fords that have small diameter dampeners. This is the only site where the vast majority of members don't recommend them.

I disagree, the same conversations take place but at a lower incidence because the bulk of the information was disseminated years ago and most people have already learned to avoid small dampers.


3) Seriously, I know only a few people that have broken oil pump gears and about half ot them had a stock dampener.[/QUOTE]


Here again we are comparing extremely limited experience with that of industry vetrans. The stock damper isnt perfect nor is it indestructable. If a person wants indestructable they should go with ATI or Innovators West but no one should take a step backward from the stock unit, it is border line as it is.


It's ridiculous to continue having this argument. If it's not because you guys just like conflict than I cant understand what it could possibly be. For what reason would anyone bother to continue this? From my side of the argument I am helping prevent the needless destruction of some regular Joe's engine and I have every industry expert on my side.

You guys on the other side are defending what? The right of a huge corporation to sell faulty products with no accountability or sense of responsibility for the damage they cause? It's not like you are correcting false or incorrect information. The facts are REALLY simple. Small diameter dampers do not adequitly control harmonics on a Ford DOHC engine.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

enough said

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

That's exactly right. You want to put them on, go ahead. Frankly for the gains one gets out of them it's just foolish. Money should be spent elsewhere.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

They were on the car when it came into my possession.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I got 11rwhp for only $112 dollars; probably my best bang for the buck mod.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I know 2 people who used piggybacks....and didnt even put the damper back on!!!!! LOL

1 of them was a 2V h/c/i car.....ran for about 2.5 years, realized he didnt put it on.....installed it and it has been running great for the last 5 years
(sees 7500 rpm)

The other, a local guy here....VERY popular on the boards....has one of the fastest bolt-on 4V's......and he ran it that way for about 2 years I think, 100 or so track passes to 7k rpm. Ford replaced the engine under warranty, all I'll say. lol

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Wow, way to set the world on fire:12: .And you did back to back pulls after installing the pullies right?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Yes, back to back dynos. It's very common to see gains of 8-10rwhp with the March fluid dampener/wp and alt pulleys.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

they got the new march crank pulley made for the machs now.. if anyone would like to know

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCH-1176/

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

can we see the dyno charts??