2003-04 Mach 1 Registry Owners Club
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2003-04 Mach 1 Registry Owners Club (http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/index.php)
-   Engine & Drivetrain (Including trans & rear axles) (http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64)
-   -   Drivetrain build in the works (http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=130843)

JRCEngineering 03-11-2014 08:05 PM
Drivetrain build in the works
 
I'll have to put the Nitrous dreams on hold for a little while. I was at the track, went 12.5 but at the cost of my third gear!:OUCH: Now it looks like im going to overhaul the whole trans.

The 3650 is known for all the problems i have so i am not surprised. I am looking for information and opinions on what to do. I have a guy that will tear down and rebuild for 350 bucks. That is labor only. He says what ever parts i decide to go with wont change the price of his labor.

What should i put in the 3650 to beef it up a bit? Which direction should i go in?

DSG2003Mach1 03-11-2014 08:20 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Does pro-motion sell a kit? I know they build em

JRCEngineering 03-11-2014 08:32 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Not that i can see. I will give them a call tomorrow. I know american powertrain only sell a complete tranny.

Do you know which parts i would need to beef up? I dont know much about them but from doing a little research i can see that ill need shifter forks, syncros and maybe even gears.

Bmeagher 03-11-2014 08:44 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Get it face plated.... Tho's are my plans when mine grenades.

JRCEngineering 03-11-2014 08:59 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Face plated?

Mach828 03-11-2014 11:57 PM
I have the strongest 3650 on the market and it still is a 3650. Save yourself the headache and get a t56 magnum or swap to a built auto. If its drag only and you are hardcore stick , get a face plated TKO.

Sent with a shot of DROID go fast

not a gt 03-12-2014 06:23 AM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRCEngineering (Post 1575627)
Face plated?
http://www.libertysgears.com/

Mach828 03-12-2014 11:14 AM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
You won't be able to get away with a basic rebuild. I had a basic rebuild done while my built 3650 was being made, and I destroyed that transmission in probably 6 months.

My built 3650 has held up, its the 750hp rated one from American Powertrain, but it still has the 3650 feel to it and nothing will change that. I also had to sacrifice my overdrive gear ratio to a .74. Unless you are willing to pay more to have it regeared, or ship your stock transmission and ensure they build that one, then its likely you'll lose the Mach 1 overdrive as well since 95% of the cores aren't from a Mach 1.

You can get a T56 magnum and have a better overdrive than the Mach 1's .62.

lcaptmorg 03-12-2014 01:24 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
You guys are funny.


If you daily drive your car don't even think about a face plated tranny. The can be damaged from dd use and are a real pain on the street. Don't. Get me wrong they are awesome for a trac car and limited street use.

The t56 magnum is no doubt an amazing tranny but is heavy and dern $$. 4k I a lot for a tranny.

The American powertian tranny is a great tranny but the 750hp rating is not the strongest one built. And no you will not have to sacrifice your OD. How you ended up with a .74 OD is beyond me. The 3650 from most of the leading builders can be had with a .67 OD from a gt or .62 from the mach at no extra charge. Both gforce and promotion offer 1000hp versions of the 3650 with optional 2.90 first gear ps and .58 OD gear sets that are cryoed and offered in face tooth or syncros . Obviously the cost goes up for that kind of tranny.

First things first. Budget. Then call promotion, gforce, American power train and talk to them about some options that fit what you want to spend.

Mach828 03-12-2014 01:48 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaptmorg (Post 1575657)
If you daily drive your car don't even think about a face plated tranny.
I said to go that route if its track only and he is set on using a manual trans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaptmorg (Post 1575657)
The t56 magnum is no doubt an amazing tranny but is heavy and **** $$$
Price compared to a strong 3650 really isn't that big of a difference. Only differences are you need the bellhousing, driveshaft, reverse lockout wiring, and shifter. Dealing with all the BS from my 3650 problems ended up costing me more in gas, my labor and time, and added expenses than it would if I had just shelled out the extra $1,000 in swap parts for a magnum from the start. If I had known I would have just put a built auto in from the start, I'll end up doing it eventually now anyways, and my built 3650 money will be down the drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaptmorg (Post 1575657)
The American powertian tranny is a great tranny but the 750hp rating is not the strongest one built. And no you will not have to sacrifice your OD. How you ended up with a .74 OD is beyond me. The 3650 from most of the leading builders can be had with a .67 OD from a gt or .62 from the mach at no extra charge. Both gforce and promotion offer 1000hp versions of the 3650 with optional 2.90 first gear ps and .58 OD gear sets that are cryoed and offered in face tooth or syncros . Obviously the cost goes up for that kind of tranny.
AP doesn't replace the gears on the cores they use. The gears are expensive. Therefore they usually keep the overdrive ratio of the core if the gears are in good shape. Since only the Mach 1s came with the .62, then your likely going to be stuck with the other available ratios. Unless you spend $250 to crate your stock transmission to them as a core, or you pay extra to have the ratio changed. I assumed they were giving me their advertised better ratio as part of the "Extreme" package, but I learned after I installed it and hit the freeway that there was a surcharge for getting the .5x overdrive ratio they offered.

Sounds like the G-Force 3650 is the best on the market. I would have bought that one but I don't think it was available when I ordered mine 3 years ago. I don't see a price on their site?

not a gt 03-12-2014 01:49 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
The 3650 from most of the leading builders can be had with a .67 OD from a gt or .62 from the mach at no extra charge.

Which one is best of both worlds for street and occasional track??

If I had known I would have just put a built auto in from the start, I'll end up doing it eventually now anyways, and my built 3650 money will be down the drain.

Why does everyone seem to have a hard on for auto's? (Really, just asking).

Sounds like the G-Force 3650 is the best on the market

Others opinion??

Unless you spend $250 to crate your stock transmission to them as a core, or you pay extra to have the ratio changed.

Is this a valid , smart option price wise??

Mach828 03-12-2014 01:51 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not a gt (Post 1575659)
The 3650 from most of the leading builders can be had with a .67 OD from a gt or .62 from the mach at no extra charge.

Which one is best of both worlds for street and occasional track??
Lower numerically the overdrive the better if you use it on the street, wayyy better gas mileage too. If its a track only car it will never see overdrive so it doesn't matter.

not a gt 03-12-2014 01:57 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach828 (Post 1575660)
Lower numerically the overdrive the better if you use it on the street, wayyy better gas mileage too. If its a track only car it will never see overdrive so it doesn't matter.
No s**t my brain is slow, like I am gonna shift into 5th at the track :smack:

Mach828 03-12-2014 02:05 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not a gt (Post 1575659)
Why does everyone seem to have a hard on for auto's? (Really, just asking).
In my case I started to rack up a stack of time slips, things started breaking, I was getting pissed from trying different combos (clutch, flywheel, clutch fork, tob, quadrant, adjuster, cable, etc) to get more consistent and clean shifts for better times. Trying to get the perfect clutch fork angle is also challenging. I've had the transmission in and out so many times.

I've killed 3 3650 transmissions (stock trans the synchros went out, I broke a gear on the built one, and hurt the sycnhros in a stock rebuilt one).

I also despise the cable driven assembly and can't do anything about it.

Driving a built auto is so much fun. I drove my friends 800hp terminator with a lentech 4r70w and it was amazing. My comet has a mildly built c4 is also a lot of fun to drive. Even my F150 I just rebuilt that transmission myself and did some valvebody upgrades and it is fun to drive.

I'm probably a special case and just am holding a grudge. I probably shift my car hard at WOT more times in a weekend than most people do in a year. That may also have something to do with it. :wall:

lcaptmorg 03-12-2014 02:11 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
People move toward autos for a host of reasons. They can be built to handle far more hp, they are more consistent at the track. For guys with turbos its pretty much their only option to build boost on the line.

Draw backs they eat power, not as fun IMHO, and don't have the good OD gears for highway use.

lcaptmorg 03-12-2014 02:21 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach828 (Post 1575658)
I said to go that route if its track only and he is set on using a manual trans.

We definitely agree on that. I wasn't correcting. More reinforcing lol.


Price compared to a strong 3650 really isn't that big of a difference. Only differences are you need the bellhousing, driveshaft, reverse lockout wiring, and shifter. Dealing with all the BS from my 3650 problems ended up costing me more in gas, my labor and time, and added expenses than it would if I had just shelled out the extra $1,000 in swap parts for a magnum from the start. If I had known I would have just put a built auto in from the start, I'll end up doing it eventually now anyways, and my built 3650 money will be down the drain.

How has your built 3650 held up? I agree for some the magnum swap is not a bad way to go. Just wanted the OP to know that 4k is a realistic number not including labor. Have run plenty of autos in high HP and definitely enjoy the reliability and consistency. For fun though you would never get my stick away from me.



AP doesn't replace the gears on the cores they use. The gears are expensive. Therefore they usually keep the overdrive ratio of the core if the gears are in good shape. Since only the Mach 1s came with the .62, then your likely going to be stuck with the other available ratios. Unless you spend $250 to crate your stock transmission to them as a core, or you pay extra to have the ratio changed. I assumed they were giving me their advertised better ratio as part of the "Extreme" package, but I learned after I installed it and hit the freeway that there was a surcharge for getting the .5x overdrive ratio they offered.

That must be American powertrain deal because Promo will send you a tranny with either gear set in it. I still have now idea how you have one with .74. Never seen a 3650 with that od gear. Core is the same at promo for either tranny and shipping them just sucks either way. I think all the companies charge extra for the .58od and 2.90 first.

Sounds like the G-Force 3650 is the best on the market. I would have bought that one but I don't think it was available when I ordered mine 3 years ago. I don't see a price on their site?
I believe its 3k or so. Definitely not cheap either.

lcaptmorg 03-12-2014 02:26 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not a gt (Post 1575659)
The 3650 from most of the leading builders can be had with a .67 OD from a gt or .62 from the mach at no extra charge.

Which one is best of both worlds for street and occasional track??

If I had known I would have just put a built auto in from the start, I'll end up doing it eventually now anyways, and my built 3650 money will be down the drain.

Why does everyone seem to have a hard on for auto's? (Really, just asking).

Sounds like the G-Force 3650 is the best on the market

Others opinion??

I don't think you could go wrong with a tranny build by any of those companies. Just depends on your budget.

Unless you spend $250 to crate your stock transmission to them as a core, or you pay extra to have the ratio changed.

You will pay a core either way if you don't ship them your tranny. So its 1: pay the core 2: ship your tranny.

There is charge for a .58 od gear either way.

Is this a valid , smart option price wise??
Give them a call and discuses.

Mach828 03-12-2014 02:39 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
You know, I loved the AP 3650 when it was paired with the spec stage 3 clutch. But I broke a gear tooth, and AP said it was because I was running a puck style clutch which created too much stress because it doesn't allow any slip. They fought me over warranty but I finally got them to fix it. However I agreed to switch to their clutch recommendation versus using a puck/twin disc setup.

So I ended up getting their science friction kevlar clutch and pressure plate. The pressure plate was wrong and i never was able to get them to send me a replacement, so I ended up using a spec pressure plate and the kevlar disc. I really dislike this clutch and wish I had just put another stage 3 spec back in. The kevlar gets more sticky as it heats up, so when I haven't been hot lapping it then it shifts fine. But if its hot then it feels like it doesn't want to release entirely. I'll try and break it with some hard launches this weekend.

SuperMach1 03-12-2014 06:29 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by not a gt (Post 1575659)
[B]
Why does everyone seem to have a hard on for auto's? (Really, just asking).
Because autos are faster...:yes:

JRCEngineering 03-12-2014 07:17 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
This is alot to think about. As of right now i wont be going more than 450 hp and around 450 tq.

It just seems like there is no best option. Is there a thread explaining the T56 swap?

I cant afford more than 2500 right now.

looks like im ****ed either way

lcaptmorg 03-12-2014 10:21 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMach1 (Post 1575685)
Because autos are faster...:yes:
That's just what we let them think

Mach828 03-13-2014 09:59 AM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
Promotion sells their 700+hp T-45s for $2,000. I hear that when upgraded the T-45 is actually a smoother shifting gear box over the 3650 because of the shift linkage being similar to the T-56. Maybe you can work out a deal with them and they will let you use your 3650 as the core. But the T45 has a mechanical speedo setup, so that could be an issue.

Or, just do a simple rebuild on the 3650. Have one of the rebuild companies swap in new synchros, 2nd gear TSB, and fix the 1st to 2nd clutch fork issue and be done. I'd beware of having anyone local build it, my local guy said he was going to rebuild my stock one and just ended up swapping it out for one he purchased from some cheap large rebuild company. I knew because I had rethreaded the shifter bolts to accept a large standard bolt, and the one I got back had stock threads. He swore it was the same one I gave him, and I got shafted with a .68 overdrive and my Mach trans went who knows where. :wall:

I just looked and American Powertrain doesn't even sell a 3650 anymore. Maybe they realized its a POS trans and decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

lcaptmorg 03-13-2014 11:09 AM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
I don't know that would advocate a t45 over a 3650 but the t45 sure does shift better than the 3650 with the t56 carbon fiber rings. Both still need upgrades to be good trannys.

Might give Hanlon motosports a call. They have some nice units as well and I know they like the t45. They build some nice 3650s as well

If you go with a local builder just make sure he is actually doing the work like mach828 said and have them do the ford tsb and upgraded fork.

JRCEngineering 03-13-2014 08:10 PM
Re: Drivetrain build in the works
 
What are the TSB's For?

This is where i am at right now

DDPerformance t56 swap w new clutch $4700 ( 300 less than what i owe on the car haha) http://www.ddperformance.com/ba71-2-...num-kit-99-04/

Pro Force Pro C (600hp rated) $1900 plus 350 core and 120 shipping = 2370 plus a clutch for 26 spline.

Astro Performance Stock updated 1099 plus 250 core = 1349 (Keep my current clutch)

Astro performance semi pro 3650 (475 tq 550 hp rated) 1595 plus 250 core also would need new 26 spline clutch. This requiers i measure for differences in the ball stud which is a bigger headache. http://www.astroperformance.com/adva...1e199c466ac3f7


Buying the new clutch is whats going to kill me.

Can i just replace the clutch disc or do i have to do the flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disc?

I know, I know the right answer is doing it all but money is tight and my flywheel and pressure plate are new.

Mach828 03-13-2014 08:58 PM
What clutch do you have now? Different pressure plates are designed for different thickness clutch discs, among other factors. If you can get the same disc you have now but a 26 spline, you could get away with keeping the same pressure plate.

Sent with a shot of DROID go fast


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