Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Ok all for those who have been following the first part, I am continuing with a new thread to make the reading easier, so if you're lost please re-read the first thread.

Revisions - There is a new revision of the software for the Predator (r50c) on the website. It says updated tunes for GT, but this is for all mustangs. I was told by Scott Beer (tuner at Diablosport), that there was a problem with adjusting the fuel table in the previous revisions. I and several others have had the problem with the Diablo tune leaning the A/F out too much, and no way to adjust it! Well turns out it was the software, SO DOWNLOAD THIS VERSION, and maybe give the Diablo tune another try now that you can richen it up. (I had my suspicions that it was the software, but they didn't say anything when I asked, go figure).

Timing - Yes a custom tune from Diablosport can turn off the knock sensors, I finally got the tune from Scott today and it works as he says. I verified it by disconnecting and re-connecting the knock sensors, and sure enough it kept the timing the same in both cases. Now I am running between 29-26 degrees from 2-7K RPM depending on temperature and load. NOW BE CAREFUL ASKING FOR MORE TIMING, I am at 5200 ft and my engine can take more timing before pinging, if you get detonation, I guarantee you'll blow those hypoeutectoid pistons....(Read Sean Hyland's book on modifying modular motors, excellent guide!).

Furthermore I have a 160 thermostat and in the colder weather (35-50 F), my engine never sees above the mid 180's. This is relevant because without the knock retard, the computer still modifies the timing based on temperature. Something to consider if you want to go nuts with the timing. I am putting in a ported intake before I go back to the dyno, and I will post results of what the timing gains me in power at that time. For those of you who don't want to spend the money on a custom tune, simply disconnect the knock sensors (THANKS MACHONETHIS FOR YOUR AWESOME WORK BTW), and play with the factory tune timing, 22+ is pretty consistent from what I have read from others, and still fairly safe with good fuel.

Overall my experience with the Predator has been very good and for those who want a custom tune I would recommend it considering it is fairly inexpensive (120 bucks) compared to most mods. Just make sure you are in contact with the actual tuner, and not anyone else, or you'll go through what I did for the last month (see previous thread). I can highly recommend Scott Beer, he does a lot of work on mustangs so if you can ask for him. He also wanted me to try the new revision to see if there is a difference.

For those of you who want to try it, and don't want to go to the dyno, there is a simple way to check whether your running too lean. With the factory tune (unmodified) do real time data for gas acceleration WOT, selected parameters and make sure to add short term fuel (bank 1 and bank 2), at WOT see what the percentages go to (should be around -15% both banks), then when you install the Diablo tune see what it changes to, then add or take out fuel to get close or the same you were stock. Again this is a crude way and not all that accurate, a wideband A/F monitor is the way to know (DYNO).

Hope this helps everyone and please chime in with your own experiences/comments.

Thanks for the tip on getting the update.

Now if spring would just get here. I was able to get the Mach out for a drive Saturday, but now it's snowed again. Oh well, when I can I'll get that downloaded, and see what diff it makes.

Thank you for this vital tidbit of information Ricksterman. Much appreciated. Here's the kicker. Try as I might, I am unable to get the Ford PC Downloader, Rev. 1.00 & revision r50c to function on my PC. I spoke with "Brian" at DiabloSport & to no avail. After numerous failed attempts, I called a second time & left a message on his answering machine. Has anyone else had this problem? Any input? If anyone can help please e-mail me at igetznosleep@aol.com.

Update on downloading r50c to desktop: Ford PC Downloader, Rev. 1.00 opens an incorrect window. So, I deleted 1.00 & downloaded Ford PC Downloader, Rev. 1.07. Correct window now opens. Here's where it get interesting. Depending on your computer, select the correct COM port. That done, ensure baud rating of 115200 for COM port, window, & Predator. The problem is the Predator (for reasons that only the devine can speak to) won't switch over to 115200. So, I resign myself to the Predator default setting & change the COM port & window to match the next recommended baud rating of 57600. That done, the download did not transfer to the Predator (Waiting to communicate). Go figure. DiabloSport gets a call in the morning. Input anyone?

Ok had similar issues doing the uploading thing. Use version 1.0, make sure that windows (com port) is set to 115200, don't worry about the Predator or the program. You can't reset the baud rate when you're reflashing the Predator. Make sure the program is "waiting to communicate" before you power up the predator. It may take a couple of tries. Trying to set a lower baud rate on the PC and the program is what messed it up. Hope this helps.

Oh and btw I did check out version r50c, and the A/F looks good based on my short term fuel trims. Essentially in may car the A/F was 13:1, with the tune leaning out the A/F 2-3% above 4K RPM but that is fine. As far as timing goes I dunno, I am going with the custom tune.

Earlier versions (r50a, b) did not work worth a d**n in my car and leaned the mixture out to over 14:1, and of course there was the fuel adjustment bug....

Rookie Data logger
 

Rickster,

I bought a used predator about a month ago but I have been so busy that I have not really had time to play with it. Your post got me going on it and I went out last night and bought the cables and power supply to upgrade to r50c. I was running r50a. For now I am totally stock unless you want to count my K&N. I have a 90 GT that I put all my spare $$ into for now, but soon I will start working on the MACH.

Anyway, I have figured out the computer side of things. I have succussfully datalogged (using factory tune) and viewed it on my computer. Also, I was able to upgrade to r50c with no problems. I even figured out how to turn the darn T/C off. If was simple enough but reading the manual was a waste of time.

BUT my problem is I have no clue what I am looking at when I datalog. Also, I know I am not doing things exactly right. For example when I viewed the datalog using the graphic viewer it was very limited because of the PIDs (?) when you look at the RPM's which goes up to 6k+ and some of the fuel and timing data there is not much variance. i.e the fuel and timing lines look flat because of the scale of the y-axis (x maybe?)

Anyway, if possible can you provide some specific instructions on setting up parameters in the predator and what to look for when viewing them? I am trying to learn how to read this thing so that when I start making mods I can be able to adjust my own timing and fuel levels.

It seems like it would be possible for someone to email datalog files. Just wondering if it would be helpful to email you the file so you could see what I am doing wrong and help to explain what I am looking at.

Any help you can provide would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Good Luck to anyone that tries this. If all is done right outstanding results will show.

QTRPONY I sent you an email. The software itself is pretty useless, so I always convert the file to .csv and use excel instead.

Well I got the car dynod today and these are the results:

HP 305 @ 6050
TQ 321.5 @ 4800
A/F 13.5:1

The custom tune added about 11 HP and 8 ft-lbs from my last time, no other mods, just the custom tune w/ a little tweaking. The timing goes from 29 down to 24.25 at 6500. And guess what I can't adjust it with the predator, SONOFA....I will email the tuner again and ask him what he can do, this is getting old. It maybe another bug in the software much like before with the earlier revisions where the fuel table 4-7K couldn't be adjusted for the Diablo tune. Overall the results are good but be forewarned my car is modded, so I doubt you would see similar gains, but so far it was worth it for me.

Now if anyone can tell me how to include a pic I can post the dyno results (I can't figure out how to add an image from the HD).

Rickster,

What type of mods do you have?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Izzy, this is what i have:

SLP catted X-pipe
Magnaflow Catback
KN CAI
PHP spacer
Steeda Underdrive pulleys
Watterwetter
160 Thermostat
Iridium 55 plugs
Mobil 1 0-20W oil
Predator custom tune (Factory tune, but with knock retard disabled and 25 degrees in the tuning table 2-7K).

The only tweak I did to the custom tune was lean out the A/F 1.5 % 4-7K, to get me a flat 13.5:1 ratio, and that was because I know my car makes the most power there at this altitude (after some 40 some dyno runs). I can probably pick up a couple more HP, if I could keep 25-27 degrees past 6000, since that is where my peak power is. We'll see what Diablosport tells me about what is pulling out the timing, and why I now can't adjust it with the Predator.

The only remaining mod I want to do to the engine is a ported intake which one of the forum members here is doing for me (can't remember his name right now). I will dyno again then to see the gains and the change in A/F.

If someone can tell me how to post a pic from my HD, I can show you the curves, including having the timing and load curves overlaid from the Predator, since I was logging during the final dyno run. I also have the comparison with the baseline pull, since the gains overall have been very good throughout the RPM range.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I'm a tard, attached is the pic of the final dyno run with the custom tune installed, along with the timing

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Here is the last run (with all the mods) before and after the tune. A/F leaned out a bit and timing of course advanced substantially.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Well I got another tune from Diablosport, since I still wasn't happy with the timing (after 6K), and this time I think they went overboard putting in 30 across the RPM range (maybe I got annoying). I will send these plots to the tuner (along w/ others), and see what they can do to bring down the timing a bit between 2.5-3.5K. Otherwise the adjustments through the Predator work fine. Right now I have the -10 -12.5 % (2-4, and 4-7K) in the car. Even the tune without any retard doesn't ping, but come summer time I think it may be too extreme. I guess I am curious what shape timing curve would be best, although it is obviously load dependent. You can see the overlay of calculated load and timing in one of them. The others are multiple runs for similar conditions. Enjoy, any questions, comments or suggestions are welcome.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Your curves for run 39 are flat. Mine are shaped more like your run 32. Do you think the custom predator gave you such flat curves?

Interesting you have your best run w/ AFR around 13.5; Most of the threads I've read say the 4valve motors like AFRs in the high twelves. Mine made best power w the AFR in the 13.3 to 13.5 range. Running r50c I have finally been able to effect timing timing and control fuel. My timing curve is opposite of yours for a 4th gear pull. It starts at 19 and climbs to 21 (most of the time). fyi - I am seeing more timing in 1st and 2nd gear while it is much more variable in 3rd and 4th.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

CY-Mach1,

Certainly the torque curve is flatter. I still have the "dip" in both HP and TQ but not much. The only change between the two runs is the custom tune, so timing would be the most likely possibility, since there wasn't much of a temperature change between the runs.

Yes I've also heard that 13.1 is the best ratio for power, but most of the time the AFR is measured after the cats, so the actual engine AFR is lower (0.5 point is one estimate I've read). 13.3-13.5 is consistant with what I saw on the dyno. I've tried lower AFR's (12.1-13.0) and I've lost both HP and TQ. I say you're in the right ballpark for AF.

If you look at my last post, you'll see my timing curve(s) (with the latest tune) now go up (too much really). Timing is adjusted based on a number of parameters. My knock retard is disabled, and temperature has been pretty constant for most of my runs. I would expect different timing for 3rd and 4th since the calculated load would be more variable. I did all my datalogging WOT in second gear to avoid that, so very good point btw. The tuner has this data also, and hopefully will get back to me as to why my Predator cant retard the timing between 2.5-3.5 K.

I am debating doing one more dyno pull now that I have 28+ degrees through redline, but that's another 50 bucks, so I may wait until I get the ported intake installed.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I can understand holding off on the dyno runs. Thanks for the additional information.

With r50c I'm seeing 22-23 degrees solid through 2nd vs. 19 or less using r50a. While r50a sucked in 3rd and 4th it still outperfomed the factory tune in my car. Timing seems more consistant run to run than earlier verions. I unplugged the knock sensor connection and didn't see a signifigant difference using r50c. Overall I'm pleased with the r50c release. I still really admire run 39!!!!

Is timing curves and knock sensor use the only parameters modified in the custom tune?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Thanks, it took a lot of frustration to get over 300RWHP! and I'm not quite done yet.

Yes, the only thing I specified in the custom tune was to disable the knock retard and 25 degrees timing 2-7K. If you don't see a difference in timing after disconnecting the knock sensors that means yours are working as they are supposed to, i.e. not pulling timing if there is no reason. MACHONETHIS did some great work convincing me that a lot of knock sensors are unreliable, and tend to be the cause of a loss of timing. With the factory tune and the knock sensors disconnected I saw about 22 degrees 1st and 2nd gear also. If you advance the timing 10% 2-4 and 4-7K on the Diablo tune, you should be able to safely pick up a couple of HP. I'll keep posting to this thread as I get more information.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I just installed the regular Predator tune on my car, I did not touch anything else. The regular tune does not mess with your timing does it? I am just wondering because I want my timing to stay the same because I also have 125 shot of Nitrous. I am planning on on taking my car and the Preadator to have it put on the dyno and tuned to get the most out of it without messing with the timing so so that I will be ok with the Nitrous. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Cory if you installed r50c you should be ok, since you have a predator you can always log the timing and see if it changed? The Diablo tune will lean it out a bit at high rpm, and if you're running nitrous that may or may not be a problem. The Dyno is the way to go, if you're worried don't use no2 until you get it there.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

So.. I should have them put it on a dyno before I run the nitrous?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Yeah I would tune it on the dyno before you run nitrous, is it worth blowing the motor for?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Yeah I think I will have them put it on the dyno and make sure it is ok N/A and have them do a good setup that is strong N/A and will withstand the spray, then have the Nitrous hooked that same week and get back to the dyno with the Nitrous to make sure it is all ok, and yeah your right I dont want to blow this motor.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

All right this will be one of my last posts to this thread, since I finally got a good custom tune (3rd iteration). I have posted the RPM and spark advance vs time, second gear WOT, for two runs. The custom tune is retarded in the Predator 26 % 2-4K and 35 % 4-7K. This gives an almost flat 24 degree advance through redline. It allows me to have a safe tune for the summer, and still gives me lots of room to advance it if it makes more power (dyno). I am going to put in a ported intake, so it may be a while before I go back to determine the optimal timing advance for my car, but I know with 24 degrees advance I am at 305 RWHP, so it will be a good starting point.

Overall the custom tune was worth it to me, the knock retard is eliminated, and I can now adjust both fuel and timing substantially with the Predator. If you can find a local Diablosport dealer I would suggest getting a custom tune while on the dyno, as opposed to getting them through email from Diablosport, and then having to verify what has changed/improved, it has been a headache. Any questions/comments let me know, enjoy

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I realize the below technique doesn't replace a dyno run with a wideband O2 sensor but would someone help me a little with this? I would like to try and keep my engine safe until I can get to a dyno. The Predator book isnt the best so I was looking to find out what I settings to use to get the information I need and then what results to look at. I have never done data readings before so I am not sure what the setting would be. When -15% is mentioned is that number going to be given to me somewhere on the readout and what will it be called.
Thanks for the help.

Dave
"For those of you who want to try it, and don't want to go to the dyno, there is a simple way to check whether your running too lean. With the factory tune (unmodified) do real time data for gas acceleration WOT, selected parameters and make sure to add short term fuel (bank 1 and bank 2), at WOT see what the percentages go to (should be around -15% both banks), then when you install the Diablo tune see what it changes to, then add or take out fuel to get close or the same you were stock. Again this is a crude way and not all that accurate, a wideband A/F monitor is the way to know (DYNO)."

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Can you only eliminate the knock retard through a custom tune?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I'm running r50D with -10% fuel (richer) programmed in for both RPM ranges. I see a solid 20 degree spark advance and -22% on the short term fuel. I just read all of this and seems like my timing is low compared to how far advanced some of you guys are running your timing. -22% on the short term fuel should mean it is running rich correct? Should I go for more timing or back out the fuel?? I always run good 93...sometimes Sonoco 95 (b/c it's only $.10 more).

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

You just scroll down when you post a thread and click "manage attachments" then click browse. and find yor file and then select open. Viola! you have mada an attachment! please pardon my sarcasm.
BTW awesome info in your thread I have just bought the predator and I can only utilize about 10 percent of its functions due to my lack of knowledge on the piece. thanks for the info!! :yes:

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

yes, -22% means you should see 11.8 A/F with a wideband.

i would lean out the A/F from 4k to 7k but richen the lower side of the rpms from 2k to 4k. i was sitting at high 13's to low 14's A/F ratio.


timing isnt everything.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Glad everything worked out for you :yeh:

think i'll see my tuner tomorrow & hopefully the SCT software can take full control of my timing.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Did you mess with any of the stock settings on the R50d or was that run "as-is?"

Thanks
Dave

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I also have the Preidtor with the r50d update. I installed the Diablo Tune and my car fills great, because I have a C&L, Magnaflow Cat Backs and thier X-pipe, I'm running my 2-4k and 4-7k really rich (-20 and -15 perspectively). I just purchased the worked Intake from Orange Blast and PHP Spacer which I want to install prior to dyno.

When it's all in, I'll let you know how she performs, Deeve your post is very promising, I'm hoping f 300hp+ figures, keeping fingers crossed!

Michael

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

The run I posted was with the R50d as it came from Diablosport...no modifications. After the session, I did dump a little extra fuel into the 2-4k band because I wasn't 100% confident in what the dyno shop said about their low end a/f measurements.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I'm having issues with the R50D tune. My car pings on "tip-in", which is just right when the throttle is snapped, then goes away. I don't see any timing being pulled at WOT and the car is actually running a little rich. It just pings when I punch the throttle. Seems I'm not the only one here with that problem either, just looking for a little help here please.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I believe I am having the same problem with the r50D tune. When I downshift and get on it I get a little bit of a rattle in the engine. Any help would be appreciated.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

EXACTLY what I am experiencing. Maybe if we get enough people, Diablo will make another revision. This is not a safe tune!!

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Well I have to confess Im not a Mach1 owner. I have a 99 Cobra with a Magnaflow catback and a WMS cold air intake... I just installed the r50d Predator tune last night. Feels like I picked up some torque down low, which is nice. I have done some searching online and this thread seemed to have more good info than most of the others I have read. I am not getting any pinging, but the strange thing is the exhaust odor doesnt even smell like exhaust anymore. Its doesnt really smell like anything actually :notsure: Not sure what that means, I would guess it means I am leaned out quite a bit.
My question is if I dont notice any pinging am I good to go?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Your running lean! Too lean and the motor goes, have the car dynoed and try to get about 12.5 air to fuel ratio at wide open throttle, any more then 13 or higher can equal new motor, that is why you don't smell anything.

Michael

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

At normal cruising while at part throttle, you are going to be running around 14.7 on A/F ratio. The fact that you smell no exhaust then is no cause for concern.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

I had the same problem with the tune. Dyno tune helped, but still get it sometimes.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

so i have the -c tune, should i up grade tot he -d tune?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Hello all I am new to this. I just bought an 04 mach and love it. My question is this I bought a predator off of ebay and installed the tune. I did not touch nothing in the tune just put it in like it is. I felt a diffrence down low. I ran the car at a 1/8th mile drag strip and the car runs fine when it is cold but when it is up to temp it seems to loose power. Is this the programmer? I got into a shoot out with a 98 vet and I do need to say I won 2 out off 3:D but first pass ran a 8.83 @ 82.5 next pass went a 8.90 @ 80 next pass went a 8.99 @ 78. The car is stock with a k&n and this programmer and just flowmasters. Any info would help. If I need to i will put stock program back it to keep from hurting my car if yall think this is a problem. Thanks. Oya it is the R50d ver.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

sounds just like heat soak....what were the temps and humidity outside?

just depends on the car too...i can hot lap mine and run the same times everytime

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Welcome to our World, heat soak SUX. Rig up a toggle switch to run the radiator fan as needed.

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/...ad.php?t=65142

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Thats the thing that puzzeled me. I did not hot lap it. The first run I let it sit about 1hr after that about 30min apart. My 86gt is fine if I let it sit about 30min. Even if I hot lap my 86gt I dont loose that much speed. I let the mach sit a hr because it was still day light out. Then when the sun set thats when I let it sit for 30min. Dont know??? Im going to have to learn more about the mod. engine's. It is a little diffrent than my 5.0 :confused:

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

what were your 60's and rt's on those 3 passes?

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

Unless your an auto. The Predator isn't gonna really do anything for you with the mods you have.

Re: Predator revisions and timing PART DEUX
 

60 foots are around 2.2 to 2.0 On the last run it was a 2.0. My car is a 5speed.