Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Very well stated. I agree in full. This is human psychology at its best, also its human nature to better things and improve its surroundings (yes even cars), and they may do so in vein at times and are even less likely to be truthful with them selves much less other people. So I guess what the poster above is saying is that just because somebody gives a +1 to something doesn't mean thats the fact, thats just simply what they believe to be true and in all actuality may in fact be to the contrary. This is where Imperial/Historical data helps, but when even this is skewed by human psychology it becomes useless. LOL, so where does this leave us? Square one. LOL, we need some unbiased test results here. Any brave enough to wanna risk their engine?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Same rules apply for the hypothesis that was made regarding UDP and Oil pump failures.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

OK now I'm confused. Did NASA or Einstein put a K&N filter and UDP on their car?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

hahaha, Yes they did. Except what they used is way better than K&N and UDP's :butt:


For those of you who thought this was serious.... Its not. It was merely a poor attempt at humor.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

So you still consider UDP's as a culprit? I beg to differ on that. Theres more to this than meets the eye. Its a vague suggestion that has this community in a civil war.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I don't know one way or the other. Thats what i'm here to find out...

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Attempting to shroud the issue in mystery is a new approach. You must be getting desperate in the absence of any sensible defense for UDP's.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Heres an idea! Collect the data through observation and experimentation, than formulate and test the hypothesis and surprise us with the outcome.

"People observe what they expect to observe, until shown otherwise; our beliefs will affect our observations (and therefore our subsequent actions). The purpose of the scientific method is to test a hypothesis, a belief about how things are, via repeatable experimental observations which can contradict the hypothesis so as to fight this observer bias."

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

:23: :23:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

LOL, don’t cry because I called you on your crap. You displayed a misunderstanding of the issue from your first post and resorting to vague references and name calling only reinforces the fact that you are desperate to assert knowledge in an area of which you are not familiar.

There is an appropriate time and place to apply the processes that you speak of. However, nobody here has the time, resources or desire to put a set of pullies through a 10 point failure analysis.

Making decisions without applying a 10 point analysis every time is what grownups have to do every day. There are times when we have to rely on our own personal experience and the observations of experts in the field. Deciding on whether or not to risk destroying several thousand dollars worth of equipment for 4 – 5 horsepower is one of those times. I suspect at some point in your life you will realize this.

And stop referring to “us”. There is no “us”. It’s just YOU ignoring post after post of common sense. The only reason people continue to respond to you is because you are misleading a lot of otherwise well intended enthusiast into believing UDP’s are completely safe in a high revving DOHC engine.

All this time spent arguing a moot point should be focused on contributing something useful to the community, not destructive. If all you want to do is win an argument regardless of facts, choose something that doesn’t have potentially damaging and costly results for others.

At your request I will repeat what I, and others have already said. Not for your sake because you are sure to ignore the facts, but for those who don’t have time to read 5 pages of denial.

Observation 1: Steeda underdrive pullies have been measured and found to be out of round.
Observation 2: It has been “observed” that engine vibration has decreased when Steeda underdrives were replaced with the proper size.
Observation 3: Oil pump drive surfaces on DOHC crankshafts have shown damage from increased harmonics when underdrive pullies were used.

This is called “circumstantial evidence”. It is often used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through REASONING. Reasoning is something you need to polish up on. If it is considered credible enough to send someone to the gas chamber than I think we can reasonably rely on it to decide whether or not to use a set of underdrive pulleys on a Mustang.

Todd

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Folks, I know this topic is somewhat "religious" but let's keep it on track, ok?

And I request that anyone cutting and pasting large quotes from other sources please credit those sources with a URL.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

wouldn't the simple solution to this be to just upgrade the oil pump at the same time?? or is that too "scientific" for all of you guys??

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

dang you just got told. :claus:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

not at all too "scientific", i just figured if you're really that paranoid and "need" the benefit of the UDPs that it would be the solution...

on that note, after i made that post, i started searching, and it's hard as hell to find gears for our oil pumps... would it be those of a cobra? or is this something that ford made specific for each 4v mod motor?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

told? no.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

i don't have the instructions in front of me, nor do i plan on doing it, but i'm the type of person that if i was going to go with UDPs and wanted to be safe, i'd go with the oil pump gears...

also, i don't care how long/difficult something is as long as it gets done...

also, just out of curiosity, do you try to be a **** in every post you make or is it just a coincidence?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I don't think there is ever gonna be a solid yes or no for this, for as many people who say NO, there is just as many people who who say YES.

Billet oil pumps are around 350-400 depending on where you buy them.

If you want every last horsepower and dont want UDP's get an electric water pump....

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

found some for a cobra for $282 (pre-shipping), and that's why i was asking because i didn't think that was a terrible price and after seeing that, i definitely think that's not a bad price...

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

If he didn't we'd think he was sick!!!

:23: :smokin:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

i did not say it was smart to do that, just said it would be the ONLY SMART WAY TO DO IT...

and i, in no way, thought it would be a simple upgrade, i honestly don't care... most people say headers are hard, and i plan on doing that, so difficulty isn't really an issue with me...

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

udp = broken oil pump at 7000 rpm been their done that . and ford esp. sucks new motor $ 8000. and no under drive pulleys stock oil is junk. never again.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but i couldn't understand what you just posted.

So your oil pump shattered at 7krpm? Highly Conceivable with large load and increased amplification.
New motors from ford range within 8k? Woah..Thats not right!

Stock oil pumps are junk? I couldn't agree with you more!

If it shattered at 7k rpm that there is a more reasonable and solid explanation as to why it would fail. Vibrations and amplitude would've increased dramatically as opposed to a DD at 3.5K rpm on highway or city drive.
Oh well...

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

forget it....

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

what i was trying to say is that my oil pump came apart at 7000 rpm and i had udp. So i took in to the dealer for some warr. work they decline my claim
with all that b.s i had to deal with from the dealer i just took my truck into the dealer donahoo ford in baltimore md and got all stuff and went back home rebuild my self, now it a 310ci 11.0 to1 n/a motor kooks headers canton oil pan the list go's on the short of it is the oil pump is a weak link .
So a $55 dollar oil pump trash's $6000 motor if replace with a OEM, i would have loved to got a used motor and put the rest of the money towards the payments

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

So who has toasted a motor due to udp's? I mean has everyone with a mach had problems with these?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

If you are thinking about risking your engine
to gain MAYBE 2 or 3HP, think again.
Evidently some people think they know more than Al Papitto,
and most other modular engine builders.
You'll gain more from an Aluminum driveshaft and flywheel.

Good pulley options
 

March sells large diameter PS pump and alternator pulleys. When used with the stock dampener they should free up a few hp without compromising the oil pump gears.

I gained 11rwhp with a March Fluid Dampener. I dunno if it would have resulte in an oil pump failure or not.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

The March website specifically states
they are not to be used on a Mach 1, or don't fit a Mach 1.
I called a while back and asked why, and they had no answer.
The fluid damper type is probably less risk than the elastomer type.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I know, but they do fit.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

There was a mid season change (2001) with pulley alignment that applies to all late 2001 Cobras and 03/04 Mach's. I thought this was the limitation as Fluidamper didnt make one for the late cars. At least, that's my understanding. Do they make a version for each or are you saying the single version they sell actually applies to the later style water pump and pulley alignment, or both?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Anytime you change your cars from stock trim you are asking for more troubles. The more power you add the more things are going to break and the more issues your going to have. You just have to ask yourself if everything your doing is worth it. If you race your car all the time anyway its going to break at some point and pointing fingers at the underdrive pulleys along I think is hard to prove. Just my 2 cents. Good post.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

So the pulleys mentioned in this thread won't work? http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/...ad.php?t=86069

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Here we go again ..:concerned .I will just leave it with what Sean Hyland says..
"There seem to be increased instances of oil pump failure when Some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced diameter harmonic balancer provided .Steeda and ASP both make pulley sets that include a built- in Harmonic Balancer ." Improper installation using the old bolt and wrong torque have been factors too.

I installed the Steeda ones on my car and have had no problems peroid.Gained 10hp/12tq with the install . I think that the failures are mostly due to the 5- speed cars that rev higher than the auto . Combine that with the missed shift ,over -rev factor with inferior pulley sets that could be a problem. :D

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Those pullies have nothing to do with the harmonic damper.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

this thread should be renamed to "Under Drive Dampeners..and the problems they cause."

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I have the steeda crank pulley on my 5 speed Mach and your telling me its going to trash my motor? This sound like something Steeda should cover is it happens. Where should I get a better oil pump from?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Leave it alone

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I'm having Steeda install their under-drive pulley because the original Ford harmonic dampener failed and is rubbing against the timing chain cover. This is on a 2003 Mach1 5-speeder with 39K miles, never raced. Ford quality for you.

Anyway, Steeda claims that they have not heard or read from any Steeda customer that OEM an oil pump on the Mach1 was affected by the replacement of the harmonic dampener with their own under-drive pulley. It's difficult to decide who is right, but at this point since the Mach is out of warranty, I might as well try this one. And if the oil pump fails, it'll be another crucial moment to ponder about Ford's quality and decide if I'll ever buy again their "quality" products.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Let me see if I have this straight. Your Ford harmonic balancer failed, resulting in a scratched up timing cover so the solution is to install a part known to inadequately control crankshaft harmonics. And when it causes your oil pump gears to fail and subsequently destroy your engine, it's going to be Fords fault?

Ford screws up enough on their own. They don’t need to accept the responsibility for other manufacturers garbage too.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

This is a known problem on Ford OEM balancers .Since you have not seen one .:smack: .. The Steeda balancers are alot better than the stock ones !Ford will not pay anyway since the car is out of warranty !

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Maybe my post wasnt clear. When the Ford balancer fails, it doesnt destroy the engine, the Steeda's do. Why would you replace a bad part with something even worse. And then blame Ford if the oil pump gears fail while using a substandard product? Why not use an ATI or a Fluidamper? Neither of which have had any association with failed oil pumps. Just doesnt make sense.

And I'm not sure what you are refering to when you say I "havent seen one". I've seen and used both Ford and Steeda balancers. The Steeda is a very nice looking piece. Just poorly engineered and executed.

As far as the Ford balancer failures. Most of them have been on the new Aluminator crate engine that was assembled using the incorrect damper/timing cover combination. Not an inherent flaw in the damper itself.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Actually, the Alluminator issue was due to the thrust bearing.
People need to stop treating a mod motor like a pushrod motor.
Just say NO to UDP's.
It's not worth the risk.