Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Oh believe me I know, I am glad I live in a state where law abiding citizens can easily obtain a CCW permit.

I was just stating something that alot of people tend to over look. A gun is good to have but don't underestimate a guy with a knife that knows how to use it.

I could easily throw a knife and hit my target within 25', past that it would be a crap shoot but the person I am throwing it at wouldn't know, so instinct would have them bracing themselves or turning their back which would give me time to either make a break for it or go after them.*

About 12 years ago or so there was a tourist in the French Quarter who managed to get himself into the dark areas where there aren't alot of people. A guy tried to rob him at gunpoint. According to the victim he acted really scared and nervous and pulled his wallet out. He reached it forward to hand it to the robber and dropped it right before the robber had it in his hand. The robber bent over to pick it up and the guy drove a 4" blade right into the back of the robbers neck killing him.

*note: this statement was not intended to say I would try this on an officer of the law in any way.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

One part to my questions hasn't been addressed yet... how about the quick opening holster? Is it a problem in itself? I mean if I get my hand on the knife it will be opened as fast as a switch blade! Yet it is the holster doing all the work, the knife is a standard lock back Buck, blade about 4 1/2" or so.

Any officers have any experience with this item? Any laws about it specifically? Or difference in your feelings upon discovering it on a citizen?

I can post a pic if you want. Thanks, Walt

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Originally Posted by kevsrcode
It's still a bad idea to bring a knife to a gunfight though...

Or even a pair of scissors I suppose. it doesn't state it in this particular article but the item in the guys hand was a pair of scissors.
http://www.officer.com/article/artic...ion=1&id=29222

Every officer knows the danger of an edged or sharp pointed/ stabbing weapon. The problem is that the average citizen does not. Most citizens watch too much TV and movies and think that an officer will not shoot them merely for wielding a knife.
In the real world a police officer is not Andy Taylor....... or Barney Fife.....and this is not Mayberry. A police officer will kill you for just brandishing an edged weapon... based on their training. If you are not backing away or dropping the weapon you can expect to be shot. It's just too dangerous to try and disarm a subject. You don't know the offenders abilities with the weapon. Police officers are taught to expect the worst in that situation. Bottom line is if you don't want to end up on the 5 o'clock news you better drop the knife when the police arrive.
So it really isn't necessary to tell a trained police officer to be cognizant of an edged weapon.....the people that need the lesson are the ones that think they can brandish a knife.... or a pair of scissors... and live to tell a jury about it.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Can't speak for Oregon law but i don't think the holster would be an issue. Don't know of any law here in VA that prohibits the use of that type holster.
I don't really think the speed with which you can deploy the knife is a legal issue in this instance. The reason I say that is because there are a lot of "assisted" opening knives on the market that you can open almost as fast as a switchblade if not faster with a little practice. I don't know that the switchblade law is not a little outdated anyway. If you think about it what does the quickness with which you can open the blade have to do with anything? If you have a fixed blade hunting knife on your belt you don't have to open anything. If I encountered this during an arrest I don't think i would make an issue of it unless the subject tried to use the device on me or one of the other officers. And even if that happened i don't know of any law that would enhance the penalty. There certainly is not a separate charge that I know of.

I really would like to see a pic of the holster though. My curiosity is getting the better of me. I might get one.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Ok here is a series of pics of the knife holster. LOL, they might get posted in reverse order not sure how this will turn out. My intention is to show the holstered knife on my belt then as it is drawn out how it gets opened.

There is a Teflon roller post (replacable) that the blade hooks around that causes it to open as you pull on the knife.

Also there is a snap that hooks around a belt loop keeping it in position in addition to the normal belt loop on the back.

The last feature is a back door snap that you can open and push the knife backwards to remove it unopened. Nice, Well crafted and well thought out.

I got it at a local gunshow for $20 bucks, should have bought more! I don't know the maker but will start searching ...

I live in the country & find a 1000 uses for my knife daily, I am not some nut (IMHO!!) but I do find it reassuring at night in town with the wife along, we have a LOT of Meth cases here and things do happen. I like to think of myself as a junior Crocodile Dundee... " Now That's a Knife".. in my best Aussie accent...LOL.

Yep they are in reverse order.. so deal with it! Chuckle...

[/IMG]
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/Knife006.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/Knife005.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/Knife003.jpg

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

And the last three pics showing detail & the Teflon roller post

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/Knife018.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...2/Knife011.jpg
[IMG]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/Mustanger2/Knife007.jpg

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Well only 2 came up on the last post but you see the roller then the knife being pushed backwards to remove it unopened and safely.


Thanks for your interest.. plus if you ever see one on the job you will recognize what it is and the danger it might present to you... with a little practice it is FAST! Be safe officers!

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

THX for the reply, IMachU. Nice thread you have here. I usually go 4 over on straights where I can set the cruise; just so that I can move in front of traffic as much as possible. I hate being 'in the box'.

Where I live, traffic seems to be slightly below the posted limit, believe it or not. So, I tend to be wary of even 4 over, but the motorcycle police do blow me off at 4 over on their laser :THUMBSUP:

BTW, if anyone tells you they have a radar detector just to remind them to check their speed, believe them. If I didn't have my radar detection running, I'd never look at my speedo. NO ONE around here knows how to drive, so I watch THEM, NOT my guages, I prefer to stay away from them :D

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Kopacko,

I haven't heard anything about lowering the 21' rule. If your have info on it could you email or pm it to me, I'd be interested in reading about it. Thanks

Kevin

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Trublu..in MD the fact pattern you describe above would very likely land the knifewielding "victim" in a jail cell with bubba for a very long time. :mrt:

To utilize lethal force- stabbing someone in the head will always be considered lethal force and claim self defense you must be in immenient harm. IN plain english: you or someone you are protecting has to be facing death at the moment you take action. In the fact pattern you describe above the robber is facing the ground and focused on a wallet when he is stabbed...BIG, BIG NO NO!!!

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

But how does the the robbery victim KNOW that the robber isn't going to shoot him after he picks up the wallet? Maybe to prevent identification later? or just because he wants to? Why does an innocent robbery victim have to be killed before he can strike back? I hate stupid laws and stupid (IMNSHO) interpretations of self defense that take away our right to prevent harm or loss to ourselves. I am sick of what I see giving all the rights to criminals and restricting innocent people from fighting back.

I'm sorry, I should have been born in the 1800's when ideas like this would have been tarred & feathered! When a criminal uses a gun to threaten you in ANY manner I believe the use of deadly force on your part in any fashion should be rewarded! This degree of force or imminent danger.. dire threat to life is BS... he is taking my property & I don't want him too..He has a gun I don't/can't know his true intentions so I am justified in extreme deadly force in retaliation if I can.

If people had the right to truly defend themselves it would solve a lot of societies crime problems. OK Flame away, I am ready for my lumps.. LOL I know this won't be popular or politically correct... but it's still right in my opinion.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

It's pretty simple really. It's all in how you articulate your side of the story. In the scenario laid out by TruBlu all you have to do is say that you were in fear for your life and thought you were about to be killed by the offender when you acidently dropped your belongings. As your personal items hit the ground the offender stopped his attack and bent over to pick up the money. At this point you seized the opportunity to defend yourself....beleiving that as soon as the offender picked up the money and stood back up he was going to follow through on his initial intention to kill you.
Of course this is just a simplistic version and you would have to cover a few other areas such as why you didn't run instead but that could be covered by merely saying you were scared and reacted on instinct. Another reason why you would politely decline to make an initial statement to police until you could hire an attorney and have them with you during questioning.
Sorry for the long post.
Bottom line...it's all in how you tell the story.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

I agree that you best talk to a lawyer first nowdays but I bemoan the fact you have to in the first place. I wish it was the common feeling in the land that you really had the right to protect your life & property in any fashion at any time.

I apologize if I seem too harsh to any officer, I am not directing my feelings toward you guys in any way. Just lawyers & politicians & judges.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Mustanger2...the problem is time based. The robbery victim can defend himself or herself but they must do so at a point in time when they are currently facing death. With the robbery looking at the ground, the required element of immenent death is not present.

I would prosecute that individual...I would not feel great about it but I would take that case.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

define imminent... 1 second, 2 secs 20 secs, 45 secs, 1 minute... I mean how long do you have to wait for someone to kill or severely wound you, I know I am wrong in the eyes of the law, but if that robber bent down and picked up the wallet, how do I know his NEXT intention say 20 seconds later when I have no opportunity to successfully incapacitate him? Why can't I take action anytime an opportunity arises?? I have to wait until he rises with my wallet...says, "Thanks sucka now yo gonna die!", raises his pistol to my head... THEN it is ok to pull my knife and stab at him???? Good grief the idiocy of this logic!!

If he is using a gun to threaten me into giving him my money... why does the law say I must then wait until he is pulling the trigger before I can use deadly force to protect myself??? Kinda idiotic no?? If he has a gun pointing at me I ASSUME (rightfully so) that he may pull the trigger and consequently I am in dire danger, in fear for my life at all times during this confrontation. Deadly force seems entirely appropriate in this situation, logical, common sense... so it must be wrong! I am sick of this type of pandering to the criminal's rights... I got news for you, when he took up the gun he lost all rights to protection from ANY consequences.

I would like to write a law mandating my thinking on this and see the common voters decision! It sure would be enlightening for one side or the other, I think I am right but willing to see.

PS I have jury duty next month.. sure hope it is a case like this, guess my verdict??? Woohoo... can't wait!

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

That seems a tad one sided..The bad dude could very well retrieve the wallet, then cap the victim. By then its too late to act. Or..another scenario...Convenience store robbery. Often times they cap the clerk whether he cooperates or not. So if binded by that rule, he couldn;t take advantage of the bad guy being distracted...Sure would hate to have that rule here..

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I think Texas has some common sense left in their laws, not perfect but a lot better than most. Watch out though these changes are insidious and sneak up on you! The old pioneers would absolutely flip out if they could see what we have degenerated into! We must cower in our homes with no weapons and HOPE the bad guys don't come to rob, rape, or harm us... we must HOPE the cops will come in time to protect us if they do.. (once again not bashing cops, merely commenting on the time delay of response)

And if we did protect ourselves WE go to jail! Unbelievable!! I know many officers who believe as I do and have advised me how to circumvent the idiotic laws in certain circumstances, thanks guys, I know your hands are tied.

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There again I am in New Orleans where the law may vary to the extent that the criminal dosen't always have the upper hand. According to your description of the law where you live and the circumstances that must take place before you can use deadly force, the criminal always has the upper hand. The criminal is a criminal and knows that he can be picked up and put behind bars at anytime. They prey on the fact that most ordinary people will not harm them for fear of being put behind bars...a place where the criminal dosen't mind going.

According to your description of the law one would have to be a mind reader, and be able to back up the fact that he read the criminals mind before using deadly force. As you describe it if a man points a gun point blank to your head you would not be justified to kill him as you do not know if he will pull the trigger or not. I would have to say that from what I get out of it the hammer would have to be falling before you could act, at which point it would be too late.

I am sorry but quite honestly I would willingly spend the rest of my life in prison and or die protecting my loved ones. Court finds me guilty, fine by me as long as no harm came to the people I love its all good.

On a side note most any lawyer could get you off of a charge in the circumstances I laid out. The law in most places is subjective. If "YOU" believe your life is in danger. Key word being "You". Who is to say that I in my head did not believe that I would survive without acting?


As I said earlier and I think this is something the law makers should really think about. As long as the law is written to give the criminal the upper hand they will continue to prey on thoes who are scared to break the law.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

A prosecuter is expected to think that way and it is part of why the system works. But the fact remains that the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the offense.
A good defense attorney in front of a jury would have no problems getting a not guilty if the defendant kept his mouth shut in the initial police interview and consulted with his attorney before making a statement.
It's just like being charged with a traffic infraction.Just because you are charged with the offense doesn't mean you will be convicted. The police officer and the prosecuter must present evidence that you committed the violation.
In the scenario presented by TruBlu there are way too many holes to get a conviction from most jurys.
I for one would vote "not guilty" if I was on that jury. :yeh:
From a prosecutors point of view it is cut and dried but from the average citizens point of view it is not. The citizen on the jury will hear the whole story. The part about the gun and trying to rob someone would surely change my mind. A good defense attorney will remind the jury who the real victim is here.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

I agree but the problem is that the prosecuter has the ability to even think about bringing charges in the first place! When did we all give up our right to self protection of life liberty & property?

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

If the above situation happened in my county, in Texas, you would be referred to the Grand Jury, because you caused someone's death. Even if an officer kills someone in the line of duty and it's a legit shoot, they still go before the Grand Jury. What matters, in most cases, is not what is in your mind at the time of the killing, but what would have been in the mind of "a reasonably prudent person." The Grand Jury would review the case and if, in their minds, you acted "reasonably prudent" they would no bill you and the prosecutor could not bring charges. If not, they would true bill you and you would be arrested and go to trial. My opinion is that, in my area, the scenario that you guys are talking about would be no billed.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Of course, in Texas, you have the right to use deadly force to "prevent the consequences of theft and criminal mischief after dark." There is nothing in the law regarding being in fear for you life or the requirement to retreat before using deadly force...

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Immenient means at that moment. Not hours, minutes or even seconds later. If the bad guy says I am going to kill you, has the means (weapons or ability) to kill u, and acts in accordance w/ his stated intent then go right ahead and blast/slash away. However, in the fact pattern provided the bad guys says "gimme your wallet" and is focused on the wallet the entire time...you can kill him if he is moving aggessively toward you...however ur out of luck if you kill him and he is not at that moment acting in a manner commensurate with taking your life.

A good defense attorney might be able to argue imperfect self defense...that you had an honest (subjective) but unreasonable (objective) belief that your life was in imminent danger.

What is reasonable? Depends on the jury's application of the law to the facts. But the jury is forced to apply the law given to it by the judge...they can't ignore judicial instructions b/c their personal beliefs say otherwise. When this happens...(it is called jury nullification) which is VERY rare..the judge strikes the jurors ruling and pronounces an outcome conmensurate with an proper analysis of the facts and the law.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

Immenient means at that moment. Not hours, minutes or even seconds later. If the bad guy says I am going to kill you, has the means (weapons or ability) to kill u, and acts in accordance w/ his stated intent then go right ahead and blast/slash away. However, in the fact pattern provided the bad guys says "gimme your wallet" and is focused on the wallet the entire time...you can kill him if he is moving aggessively toward you...however ur out of luck if you kill him and he is not at that moment acting in a manner commensurate with taking your life.


This is still the original statement that I strongly disagree with. I believe it to be wrong and pandering to the perpetrators rights not the victims. When he is in the commision of a crime using a deadly weapon I don't WANT him to have ANY rights, he crossed a line and should be fair game for any retaliation.

Now it is ok to have to show you were being robbed and he had a deadly weapon, gun, knife etc. when you used deadly force, I think we agree on this but this imminent danger stuff and which angle his head is turned and what was he focusing on is nothing but garbage! Once you prove he had a deadly weapon he should be fair game at any time!! Even if he running away with my wallet! I want the freedom to protect my property using whatever force I deem necessary basically...of course I know that it will never happen! Sad in my opinion.

Re: Ask A Police Officer
 

I hear ya mustanger2.

Generally speaking the law takes the position that property is never more valuable than life. Even the life of a crook, so u can use lethal force to protect your life or the life of another, but not to protect your wallet, car, etc... The basic recommendation is to get to a safe location, contact the police give them an accurate description of the perp and let professionally trained individuals (officers) handle it.

They will nab the bad guy and if they do it right they will bring the case to a prosecutor and the prosecutor will do his/her best to ensure the defendant gets what he/she deserves.

That's the system.