I know there have been a lot of GTO vs Mach 1 discussions but...

[MikeMach1]

I noticed a lot of GTO fans are outraged by the new 2004 GTO. I went poking around a GTO forum and ****, they're ripping up the 2004. There is no big interest in spy photos, how fast it is, or anything - that body style is so offense to so many of them that they won't even look at it. I was completely shocked - to see GTO fans tearing up their own cars.

one went as far to say this:
" have said it before, but it bears worth repeating. We use to put pumped motors in Vegas and Pintos, and they screamed. But after we were done, we had Vegas and Pintos. I am sure the new car ( not GTO ) is fast and bad, and maybe even deserves to wear a Pontiac badge, but not a GTO badge. So keep it down under. I actually wished I had 2. One to take a dump on, and the other to cover it up with."

Three letters are coming to my mind "DOA" - in a way it kinda sucks a little bit cause - you know, even though it is kinda ulgy and boring, it is a modern day muscle car and it is some sort of competition which most of us would really like. Sh!t, a modern day muscle car wars would be really fun, love the Mach 1's and the rest of the Mustangs, but with no competition, it reminds me of scrimmage matches insted of two different teams (in this case two different cars from two different companys) battling it out.

Well, maybe after it comes out there'll be a interest in it and it'll catch on, and we could have some good fast competition.

Well, I guess we'll see in the months to come.

- Mike

[DSG2003Mach1]

ya, it has good performance, but it still looks like a GTP/Grand am. The GTO loyalists probably wont buy it like GM hoped..the continued bastardization of once popular cars by GM

[surfnet]

Boy! You're right, Mike. After seeing your post, I did a bit of surfing myself. Appears there are a significant number of people complaining. I saw a post where someone called the new Goat a half-breed Grand Prix. Impression I got was the main problem is the looks of the car. Several people don't like the Monaro background. Sounds like they wanted a total new design. It'll be interesting to see how the Goat sells, especially in view of it's high price tag!

Another Mike

[MikeMach1]

The Monaro, from what I hear is a beast down under and many aussies swear on the Monaro. I am guessing that we'll see some of the same going on right before the release of the 2005 Mustang offically comes out, but not to the extent of that the GTO is recieving. I guess most are disappointed like you say on GM not using a whole new design on the GTO. In a way it kinda bothers me a little to see the GTO looking kinda doomed right before it is released. I guess if and when Lingenfelter gets their hands on the new GTO, a lot of options will change - if they do something drastic like that 800+ hp Corvette thing they did last year that did 0-60 in 1.97 seconds.

[surfnet]

I grew up in the 60s, and as I recall, the GTOs weren't really that popular. But that's been 30-35 years ago, and the memory gets a bit fuzzy. As I recall, the Chevy line of muscle cars (SS 396, Nova SS, Impala SS) and of course the Mustangs were by far the most popular cars. Of course there were the Dodge Chargers, the Plymouth Roadrunners, Barracudas, 442s, etc. Again, vague memory, but it seems like the GTOs almost became more popular after they died off in the 70s. Well, just some nostalia, I guess, for whatever it's worth. In any event, it looks like the new GTOs have some things working against them...they're not as fast as the Machs and Cobras, they're more expensive, the looks are questionable, etc. Here's to the Mustangs and of course our Mach 1s.....

:CHEERS:

[falcongtho3]

Lingenfelter does do an Aussie Monaro, obviously we'll have to go to him if we want a little of his magic worked on US bound GTO's. I truly wish that Pontiac had left the Holden styling alone and brought it over as is. There are already styling shots out for the next version, but they look almost like a "Muscle Machines" version of a vintage goat! It should be interesting what the words of the GTO enthusiasts will do once the real deal hits the roads as opposed to the bench racing that's been going on for nearly a year now.

[17368_Mach1]

I believe GM will take a thorough thrashing (loss) on this one too, similar to what L/M is taking on the Mercury Maurader, though for different reasons. I personally don't feel Ford/LM gave the Maurader a fair shake on promoting it. The concept for this car is good and with a few modifications like a set of taller gears and blower or supercharger, would be a helluva sleeper. If things go well next year, I plan on buying a '04 Maurader as a replacement for my '96 Impala SS when LM discounts the snot out of them to get rid of them, as was done on our '03 Mach's. Hopefully I can recoup some of the "sticker price money" I paid for my Mach 1, and whatta retirement gift from me to me!...

'03 Mach 1 - DSG; 5-speed
'96 Impala SS
'92 Mustang LX Limited Edition Convertible
'53 Chebby - 2 dr

[Shaker Dan]

17368_Mach1, after you get the Maurader check out Kenny Brown if you think it would be better with a SuperCharger, etc.....

I have said it before and will say it again, the GTO is a publicity stunt that is not going to go well. They did nothing for hertiage on the car. They took a hybrid (IMO) between a Grand Am and Grand Prix and stuck a badge on it. I love the fact that it has the Vette motor in it but the hybrid look and no hertiage keeps me from thinking well of that car at all. I can't wait to get one at the track. I just hope I have my video camera with someone to run it so I can post it all over the world.

[03BlkMachOne]

Originally posted by surfnet
I grew up in the 60s, and as I recall, the GTOs weren't really that popular. But that's been 30-35 years ago, and the memory gets a bit fuzzy. As I recall, the Chevy line of muscle cars (SS 396, Nova SS, Impala SS) and of course the Mustangs were by far the most popular cars. Of course there were the Dodge Chargers, the Plymouth Roadrunners, Barracudas, 442s, etc. Again, vague memory, but it seems like the GTOs almost became more popular after they died off in the 70s. Well, just some nostalia, I guess, for whatever it's worth. In any event, it looks like the new GTOs have some things working against them...they're not as fast as the Machs and Cobras, they're more expensive, the looks are questionable, etc. Here's to the Mustangs and of course our Mach 1s.....

:CHEERS:

I was street racing my '65 coupe in 65 - 66 (the only new car I could afford). It was good "in it's class", but no match for some of the muscle cars of the day. The Goat was a respected and beautiful machine in '65, but very few on the road. You had to pay a lot extra for the 365HP 389 while the lighter bodied Chevies with 350s were faster. Never did understand why the Chevie got the 350s and the Goats got the 389.

The '65 383 Belvedere was pretty hot too, but it's costlier stable mate, the Sattellite, was more popular. Like you say, the Chevies and Mopars were the kings, at least around here. I was looking forward to finding a GTO on the street and seeing what Black Bart would do against it. Still hope it happens.

[Catman]

I like the GTO but for 35K, I think it's overpriced...isn't that the reason the F-bodies died out :confused:

[lrh442]

I, for one, don't think the GTO will be a bust for GM. First off, they don't have to sell 50,000 of these things to turn a profit. Since they took an existing chassis and dropped in an existing engine, their development costs were fairly low. I'm not sure who GM's target market is, but the fact that the old-line GTO owners are turning up their noses probably doesn't faze GM. That's a very small sliver of their addressable market. And, unlike the Mustang, this is a halo car for Pontaic. It's supposed to generate buzz (which it has), and get people into showrooms. Once there, the sales guys can steer people into GP's, GA's and other less exciting, but more practical cars.

Stylistically, the new goat is far from a home run. But I'll give GM props on the performance. It will no doubt run performance circles around any previous GTO ever made. I don't think Pontiac has anything to apologize for here. Could it have been better? Sure. But that can be said of nearly any car, our beloved Mach's notwithstanding. But it wouldn't have been affordable (or funded by GM) if Pontiac had to develop an entirely new platform.

So, as has been said before, we should be thankful that Detroit is still trying to make cars that appeal to gearheads like ourselves!

[gotmach]

I work at a Mercury dealer and the Maurader lives. You can now get it in silver,red and still black.....

GM should be embarrased to call the new Pontiac a GTO , Looks like a Grand Am on sterioids. The people who lost there jobs with the trans-am are now in charge the new GTO. ha ha:SMASH:

[Steelhorse]

GM - G.eek M.obile - GTO - G.eek T.esting O.nly

[JJC]

6 words - someone is going to get fired

[MattN03]

What are some of the GTO websites? I want to read some of these comments :LAUGH:

[surfnet]

Hello, Matt. What I did was go to Google and put in some search terms like

Pontiac Formum
GTO Forum

You should get several returns. Then just surf around through the results.

Hope this helps.

[GaPonyFarm]

Not to pour water on this party, BUT, we should all remember that none of us has seen the actual production model of the, now infamous, 2005 Mustang. Ford has plenty of time to really screw it up!

[surfnet]

Very good point GaPonyFarm!! I'm not particularly thrilled with what I've seen on the 05 Mustangs. That's part of the reason I bought the Mach rather than wait. 2 dealers told me that Ford was having problems with the 05s and had moved back the release date several times. Course they could've just been trying to sell me now, but the fact that 2 told me independent of each other made it seem credible. Since I got the 04 Mach, I think it will be 06 or 07 before I go to one of the new models. It will be interesting to see if the Goat is still around then!:THUMBSUP:

[Dr.Bleed]

The 05 Mustang GT may very well be a let down as well, but, we've all seen tests... And while mag tests are to be taken with a grain of salt, I have yet to here about anyone, anywhere, that has driven this new GTO to anything better than a 13.8. Thats hardly out of Mustang GT range. There's no excuse for a 35 thousand dollar car thats supposed to be Mustang compatition running high 13's.

The GTO seems more like it should be panned against the Marauder more than anything. I never thought I'd actually be able to say that there would be another performance car in the mid 30 thousand dollar price range that actually weighs more than the Cobra.

[jspalmer01]

Originally posted by surfnet
I grew up in the 60s, and as I recall, the GTOs weren't really that popular. But that's been 30-35 years ago, and the memory gets a bit fuzzy. As I recall, the Chevy line of muscle cars (SS 396, Nova SS, Impala SS) and of course the Mustangs were by far the most popular cars. Of course there were the Dodge Chargers, the Plymouth Roadrunners, Barracudas, 442s, etc. Again, vague memory, but it seems like the GTOs almost became more popular after they died off in the 70s. Well, just some nostalia, I guess, for whatever it's worth. In any event, it looks like the new GTOs have some things working against them...they're not as fast as the Machs and Cobras, they're more expensive, the looks are questionable, etc. Here's to the Mustangs and of course our Mach 1s.....

:CHEERS:


Surfnet...I live in Wildwood, Mo. Grew up in the 60's also so we are prolly about same age. Need to hookup sometime. PM me and we'll chat a little.

[monaroCountry]

The monaro has a rich muscle car history, in some ways stronger than that of the GTO since muscle has never died in Australia.

True that the styling for the GTO is subtle, its these types of cars that sell. The GTO unlike the trans am and similar cars appeals to a wider demographics, which is important for sales success. Ive spoken to owner of other cars mainly BMW's and subarus, these guys (some) might not know the pontiac GTOs history but they non-the-less appreciate good design, good value and good performance. All of which the new GTO provides.

For guys that think the subtle design is a bad move by pontiac and negates the positives of the car, then PROVE IT, back it up. Car trends are still showing high long lasting sales in suble cars (vw and audi), designer of the monaro promoted, and the monaro now being introduced into the UK markets and middle east markets. Agressive cars on the other hand like the trans am are less successful (I dont believe theories of those cars stepping on vette toes, what I see are cars which havent been selling).

For me and others around the world the letters GTO doesnt remind me of Pontiac or monaro but of ferraris. Unlike the pontiac GTO both the original (ferrari) GTO and monaro GTO have had a great racing pedigree, the monaro having won both targa tasmania and both 24hr bathurst. In my view the pontiac is less deserving of the GTO badge since its not really a grand tourer.

[monaroCountry]

The old Pontiac gto's were not that different from other Pontiacs of its day, it set no trends (stylistically speaking) and are quite boxy looking. Having hood scoops and other add ons does not differentiate a car, its like saying a WRX with a huge spoiler is beautiful while one without is ugly.

Prove me wrong and provide proof of how the old GTOs differed from other Pontiacs of its day.

[falcongtho3]

The original GTO was the 'biggest engine/lightest car' formula from the '60's. Nothing wrong with that. Remeber also that many of the 'tests' of the early GTO's were prepped cars with either 421's instead of 389's or 'Royal Pontiac' specials that were nowhere near stock. I still feel the Monaro/GTO will be a much better car than a lot of people expect. It has been in production a number of years and the time to refine it has passed. Even with some of the goofs that the test cars showed up with I think it'll be a more finished car than many people expect. The musclecar and supercar V-8 wars in Australia never ended, so even though the GTO (and its' Ford counterpart, the Falcon) have been away from the US for a while...they never really went away!

[monaroCountry]

I agree with your comment there falcon that muscle in Australia "never went away". BTW I love the gtho phase3 and 4. Ive been looking for an article about the gtho that some guy in America owns and drives around in. I think its in one of the mustang mags.

[falcongtho3]

I understand there is a Vermillion Fire Phase III in the US, and I've seen a white Phase II as well. There is a 5.0 XC Cobra, as well as a number of XA, XB, and now some XC,s. There is a company put of Texas called mad max cars that brings in cars from your home country.Also Aussiecars does this as well. The toughest thing about getting a Phase III would be verifying its' authenticity, as I understand it is the most 'replicated' car there. Both companies also bring in Hemi 6 cyl. Valiants, Toranas, as well as Monaros.:THUMBSUP:

[Gigashadow]

Speaking of the Australian Ford Falcon... wasn't that the car used as the yellow MFP cars in Mad Max? What was the car Max drove in the first and second movie?

[No Control]

Speaking of the '05's, things that were in "concept" that aren't making it into production:

IRS. They had to switch back to solid axle due to weight.
Those sweet gauges. I knew those wouldn't make it, due to the high production cost!!! I said that from the beginning.

I was waiting for the 05, but I honestly believe I'm happier with the Mach. I do, however, think my feelings would be a little reversed if I had settled on just a GT.

About the GTO- At least Pontiac didn't do what GM and Chrysler has done in the past. Taken a "historic" name and resurrected it on a front-drive, 4 door econocar. I.e.- Malibu, Challanger, Impalla, Duster. If you all remember, Ford ALMOST did that to us and our beloved Mustang! They changed the name of the car at the last second, and came out with a new line called 'Probe'.

[Mach 1 Boy]

Is the 3 Valve 4.6L that Ford is going to use for the 05 Mustang GT being used in anything else right now? If not, I would be VERY hesistant to buy a new motor in a new body style with a new chassis! I would have to give it at least till 2007!

I am VERY happy with my Mach and do not plan on trading it for the 05 or up.

BTW, all the colors for the 05 dash didn't make it?? I thought that was a for sure! :SMASH:

[No Control]

From the spy pics I've seen, the instrument cluster is just a carryover, modified slightly to accomodate a 65-66 dash design (twin cockpit).

[falcongtho3]

Originally posted by Gigashadow
Speaking of the Australian Ford Falcon... wasn't that the car used as the yellow MFP cars in Mad Max? What was the car Max drove in the first and second movie?
There were Falcon sedans used as MFP cars as well as Holdens. The "last of the V-8" Interceptors was a Falcon XB with a different nose mounted on it from a Transit van customizing kit. There are a number of very nice replicas out there, even in the US!

As far as the '05 dash design, I have to say it looks to me to be very different from what we have to look at. More squared off, and the upgraded gauge package will look more like '67/'68 gauges. The dashboard backlighting will be adjustable for color in order for the owner to customize that to his/her tastes.

The 3V 4.6 will be new and unique to the Mustang, and it does run! I wouldn't think the head design would be too far off from the 3V head being used on the F-150, and an available engine in Australia for some time now in the Falcon GT Sedan.