Long Tube Headers

[vanstang]

Hello everybody, I just called Mac Performance about long tube headers for a 03 Mach 1. They informed me that they have them and the part # is TS9900 ($369.00). They also stated that it would fit the 5 speeds or the automatics. I thought long tube headers would not fit the automatics because the transmisions are a different size from the 5 speeds. Bobby (Mac Performance) told me you do not have to cut, weld, pull, tie or squeeze anything. He said "Its a perfect fit". What do think guys; does he know what he is talking about? If he is right, I'm going with the long tubes. From experience the long tubes give you the best performance.

[FL Mach 1]

Have fun squeezing those suckers in there. From what I have heard it is a nightmare trying to get them to fit. Might want to look on some cobra forums and talk to them to see what is involved. I don't know if anyone here has put longtubes on. I know a couple of guys have mid lengths on their Mach 1s

[Brain]

I Bassani did mid-length headers which come in pieces. I would highly recommend getting headers with removable collectors if you plan on doing it yourself. Hooker makes some.

If you are have a shop install them, I guess it doesnot matter.

Brain

[Tomcat427]

I went with Hooker LT's and they are hard to get in there.

[Joe91898]

Originally posted by Brain
I Bassani did mid-length headers which come in pieces. I would highly recommend getting headers with removable collectors if you plan on doing it yourself. Hooker makes some.

If you are have a shop install them, I guess it doesnot matter.

Brain

Brian
Do those headers require a different X-pipe than the one for the stock headders?. I ordered an X with cats and I do want to do the headers at some point also.
Did you have to port match them?

[jbrad88]

Long tube headers have always been a paid to put in...I helped a friend put a set in a 98 cobra, and to be honest, unless I were going with a blower, I would probably not do it on the mach. I also would not use any other header but the full lengths. For all the trouble of putting in the mid length headers, why not just bust up another couple of knuckles and go with the long tubes, your scavenging will be better, and you will make a lot more hp and torque...

Then there is the emissions thing. My friends 98 with the long tubes was otherwise stock, and even with big cats, the car failed the emissions test here in the area...I realize you can "tune" the car with a chip. But....

[Joe91898]

Originally posted by John and Renae
Long tube headers have always been a paid to put in...I helped a friend put a set in a 98 cobra, and to be honest, unless I were going with a blower, I would probably not do it on the mach. I also would not use any other header but the full lengths. For all the trouble of putting in the mid length headers, why not just bust up another couple of knuckles and go with the long tubes, your scavenging will be better, and you will make a lot more hp and torque...

Then there is the emissions thing. My friends 98 with the long tubes was otherwise stock, and even with big cats, the car failed the emissions test here in the area...I realize you can "tune" the car with a chip. But....

John,
What's your take on the Bassani midlength headers? I live in NYC metro area and emissions are the same as cali.
I may just stick with the catted x and cat back. I dont plan on doing 1/4 miles runs or racing of any sort, but I would like to have it running it's best within the emision limits.
Thanks,
Joe

[Darkhorse]

Here's an informative thread on long tube versus shorty headers.

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=261465&highlight=JDM+headers

There wasn't much of a gain going with the long tubes versus the JBA shorties that he originally had. This has held true for a number of people I know. Some shorty headers are better than others though. I'd put JBA in that category any day. In this thread Bob Cosby started out with JBA shorties on a n/a 99 Cobra and went to long tubes and picked up only 3-4 horsepower. He did get rid of the drone with the new long tubes though. Now, the Bassani mid-lengths are supposed to outperform shorty headers and be on par with long tubes so don't discount the mid-lengths.

You won't have to deal with the clearance problem and trans issues the way you normally do on long tubes if you go with the mid-lengths. Although, there are some new long tubes on the market that don't necessitate the removal of a header for a clutch swap. On a heavily modified, supercharged car long tubes are the way to go in my opinion due to the superior scavenging effect but not necessarily on a n/a Mach 1. You can't go wrong with them though as long as you don't mind the clearance issues and you don't have emissions testing. They do sound really good.

As for gains with mid-lengths, just look at the April issue of 5.0&SF that covers the results of the mid-lengths, off road x, Bassani cat-back with turn downs and the PHP air box. Pretty impressive. They picked up 32hp and 27tq. They started seeing substantial gains at just under 3500 rpm too. So it wasn't just some extra power way up high.

BTW, Joe, did you get my pm? I haven't heard back on that question I asked you about.

[jbrad88]

Joe.

I have not seen any of the midlength headers on any cars here in the Houston area yet. The real question on power production on these and any car will be how much restriction are the stock manifolds really causing, versus other parts of the exhaust system?

I am a firm believer in the long tube header. Especially one that is tuned to the particular engine properly. On the 5.0 a 32inch primary tube 1 5/8 inch diam and a 3" collector was worth 20 bhp to the wheels on my gt-40 equipped engine (iron heads ported, tubular upper, e-cam, @9.5 : 1 compression). That engine made 340 lbft of torrque at the wheels with all accessories hooked up. Picked up 10 more with the short belt.

When I had the car on the gas analyzer for emissions, it actually did fine at idle, and only blew @50 more hydrocarbons then it should have at 2500rpm.

For all the trouble, go with the long tubes now, IF you are planning on making a lot of power with the car. Plan to GO BIGGER THAN YOU THINK YOU MIGHT NEED and you won't wind up buying parts 2 or 3 times.

If you are going to leave it a pure street car, then I would focus on the cat back and the x or h pipe with cats. When emissions time comes around, spend a day and put your factory h-pipe back on, and go get tested...

There is always the possiblity of getting a shop to burn you a "green" chip that will make up for some of your changes. I have a friend here in Houston with a 93cobra with heads and cam and a novi 2000. He runs 42lb injectors, ssc headers, no fmu, with stock cats on the car during testing, he was as clean as a stock 5.0. Houston Performance burned the chip for him, and although the tune is conservative, he is still making in excess of 400 hp at the wheels and can run 87 octane...he wanted it safe...

Personally, for now, I am going to let everyone else do the testing on the car, and if I decide to change I will hopefuly have a lot of experienced folks out there to talk to...

[Joe91898]

Originally posted by John and Renae
Joe.

I have not seen any of the midlength headers on any cars here in the Houston area yet. The real question on power production on these and any car will be how much restriction are the stock manifolds really causing, versus other parts of the exhaust system?

I am a firm believer in the long tube header. Especially one that is tuned to the particular engine properly. On the 5.0 a 32inch primary tube 1 5/8 inch diam and a 3" collector was worth 20 bhp to the wheels on my gt-40 equipped engine (iron heads ported, tubular upper, e-cam, @9.5 : 1 compression). That engine made 340 lbft of torrque at the wheels with all accessories hooked up. Picked up 10 more with the short belt.

When I had the car on the gas analyzer for emissions, it actually did fine at idle, and only blew @50 more hydrocarbons then it should have at 2500rpm.

For all the trouble, go with the long tubes now, IF you are planning on making a lot of power with the car. Plan to GO BIGGER THAN YOU THINK YOU MIGHT NEED and you won't wind up buying parts 2 or 3 times.

If you are going to leave it a pure street car, then I would focus on the cat back and the x or h pipe with cats. When emissions time comes around, spend a day and put your factory h-pipe back on, and go get tested...

There is always the possiblity of getting a shop to burn you a "green" chip that will make up for some of your changes. I have a friend here in Houston with a 93cobra with heads and cam and a novi 2000. He runs 42lb injectors, ssc headers, no fmu, with stock cats on the car during testing, he was as clean as a stock 5.0. Houston Performance burned the chip for him, and although the tune is conservative, he is still making in excess of 400 hp at the wheels and can run 87 octane...he wanted it safe...

Personally, for now, I am going to let everyone else do the testing on the car, and if I decide to change I will hopefuly have a lot of experienced folks out there to talk to...

John,
Thanks. I think for right now all I'm going to do is the catt'd x pipe and flowmaster catback. I hope the catt'd x passes inspection emissions, if not I'll have the H pipe ready.
Thanks
Joe

[Darkhorse]

I like long tubes but I think these new mid-lengths are pretty impressive and I don't see long tubes offering enough of a gain over them, if any at all, to justify the issues they can bring. If you don't go with a set like the Hookers or a couple of others, you will end up removing a header to get your trans out and long tubes also reduce ground clearance noticeably. They will not pass emissions either. They also increased interior heat around my legs in my old 5.0 GT but I loved them anyway ;) The heat increase wasn't too bad though. It added to the experience,lol.

With the new mid-lengths there are no ground clearance issues at all. They also don't get in the way of transmission removal. They may actually get by emissions in some places as well but that's not a definite. I know they are trying to get CARB approval on them eventually but who knows if and when that will happen. Long tubes will not pass unless you've got a buddy at the inspection station.

Bob Cosby's car, mentioned in the link above, is a n/a Cobra which, of course, has a similar motor to the Mach 1. He's running 11's with bolt-on's and weight reduction.

The August issue of 5.0&SF(the one with Mach v. Bullitt) has a comparison of shorties to mid-lengths. They took the PHP Ignitor GT which has a 5.0 stroker with SOHC heads and a Bullitt intake and compared the two headers. In terms of peak numbers the mid-lengths(the SOHC version) made 5hp and almost 17tq more than the shorties. Substantial gains were made from 2800-4800rpm with gains all the way from 2500rpm all the way to 5800 rpm. The mid-lengths had double digit gains over the shorties from basically 3000-4000 rpm and in that range the torque gain was over 20 ft-lbs with the avg. hp gain of about 14 in that range. Low and midrange gains were substantial. In the testing I've seen, heard about and read about the mid-lengths have proven their worth over shorties in my book. I would never bother with shorties on these cars with the mid-lengths available. JBA has a set of mid-lengths available now too. I think it really comes down to mid-length versus long tubes.

Joe, I would forget the shorty and look at strictly the mid-length or long tube. The shorties would be a waste in my opinion. If it were me I would go with the mid-length but it's personal preference and also what issues you can deal with. If you don't have to worry about emissions testing and you don't mind losing ground clearance you could go with the long tubes although I doubt you will see much of a gain, if any, over the mid-length. I see the new mid-lengths gaining a big following in the future. Like I said, if the issues concerning long tubes don't affect you, then take your pick. You can't go wrong either way in my opinion.

[vanstang]

Thanks everybody, you know I had long tube headers on my 01 GT. I went through D.C. Emissions and Inspection with no problems. Maybe the people you mentioned did not have catalytic converters on them. I do know for a fact that the dealer sold the car with everthing on it except the Nittos and they did inspect the car.

My GT had BBK longtube headers with cataytic converters on them. I would like to know more about the mid-length headers that you guys mentioned; please tell me more or point me in the right direction.

By the way, long tube headers was the only experience I had with headers, so that is all I know right now, but the guys in the D.C. area said they did not know long tube headers would wake-up a GT like it did. The car went 12.98 in the quater. When I bought the car it went 14.60s before all the changes.

The car had 3.73 gears, BBK pulleys, BBK cold air kit, BBK throttle body, Aluminum drive shaft, Borla Catback and Nitto Drag Radials. I think all the power came from the headers.

Forgive me, I'm just a SPEED DEMON. I traded up for this Auto Mach 1 and it is not getting the job done right now. I need to go faster than the current 13.60s @102.:o. For a $30,000 car I did expect a bit more, but I'm a faithful Ford Fan. Sometimes I wish I never had traded in my 01GT. I really don't care what Ford I get to the 12.00s in as long as I get there in a Ford. :D.

[Joe91898]

Originally posted by Darkhorse
Here's an informative thread on long tube versus shorty headers.

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=261465&highlight=JDM+headers


BTW, Joe, did you get my pm? I haven't heard back on that question I asked you about.

Sorry I did not recieve the PM

[The Mach Says]

If you go on the corral, go ahead and do a search for Mac Longtube Header installs on GT's and Cobras................LOTS OF PROBLEMS!!!! I'm not referring to a difficult install, but rather engine complications due to the $hitty quality of their LT's.........My dialup connection is horrible, otherwise I'd find you the threads, but just do a search, and you'll be sure to find several detailing the major engine problems lots of guys have had with Mac LT's

JC

[vanstang]

Thanks, no wonder thier long tubes are so cheap. Sometimes you get what you pay for.