Under-drive Pulleys Cause Engine Damage

[BLUEOVAL]

Yesterday I was made aware of several 4.6 mod. 32v motors that Ford has denied warranty coverage on due to the installation of under-drive pulleys. I will get more info as to possible specific brands, etc.... but the Ford engineer I spoke with has seen several cars which required engine replacements due to head/valve damage due to the pulleys. The situation appears to be unique to the 32 valve motors. Ford engineering has advised their field service engineers to deny warranty coverage on vehicles needing engine repairs that have had u/drive pulleys installed.... more info to follow.

[Tomcat427]

Any more info yet?

[ach1]

Does nobody trust Ford that the pulleys they put on there are selected for a reason? And on another point, I'm real curious to see what these aftermarket chips are doing to the calibration and the long term damage they are doing to their engines...

[Tomcat427]

That may be true for some parts. I do not consider the pulleys one of those parts. I put pulleys in a catagory with:

FRPP Aluminum Drive Shaft vs Stock
Hi-Pro Gear Oils vs Stock
Exhaust System vs Stock (Granite the Mach 1 system is better than most stock)
Strut Covers? Why wouldn't ford put a $1.50 piece on a new car? (Granite they do nothing for preformance, but in my opinion really enhance the looks in the engine bay.)

It is not a matter of trusting FORD (If I did not trust FORD I would not have bought a FORD>), to me it is a matter of preferance.

:THUMBSUP:

P.S. I am not big on doing anything to the chip. I even invested in the Dallas Speed-Cal when I had my 4.10 gears put in.

[SVTyballz]

Valve/head damage from underdrive pulleys??? LOL Valve/head damage from slowing down the accessories??? um ok. Maybe from a botched install........Now, i can believe Ford voiding warranties over aftermarket parts, i have heard plenty of internet horror stories ( do i believe most of them?? NO) but i personally haven't had a problem with my Ford service guys. Mod away people. Unless you want to wait 3ys/36000 miles..........

gary

[sn8kbit]

just fyi, from someone who's been dealing with the mod motor modifications/ warranty issues for a few years.

pullies will void the warranty. the dealership has no say so on the motor, romeo engine plant does that. even if you put the stock pullies back on before taking it in, romeo has a 'symptom' sheet that tells them "pullies were installed, no warranty".

i've been running steeda pullies for over a year now, no issues.

something of note:

1. do not use a piggy back style pulley (ASP, MAC, ect) steeda, romac, and one other have the intregal balancer. {add modmax to that list also}

2. be sure that the crank pulley is properly tourqued, and after the first drive, go back and check it. this is one of the reasons the timing chain/valve damge happens, is that it was improperly installed, as stated above. which wouldn't have happened of course if you hadn't added the 'mod'. be sure to get things in writing from your dealership on 'mods'. they may say mod friendly, but when it comes to money......

as a side note on my first post....what is the stock mass air meter size? info i've gotten is 66mm.......which i think is BS. i was under the impression it was same as the 99/01 cobra at 80mm.

[ach1]

I wouldn't put pulleys in the same catagories as those. When you put pulleys on the car, it is altering the whole FEAD system which could do damage. The other things in your list wouldn't cause the engine to overheat. I would put pulleys in a modification catagory of chips, Air Meters, TB's and Superchargers.
A lot of people think there is just free horsepower in the engine that Ford doesn't know about.


Originally posted by Tomcat427
That may be true for some parts. I do not consider the pulleys one of those parts. I put pulleys in a catagory with:

FRPP Aluminum Drive Shaft vs Stock
Hi-Pro Gear Oils vs Stock
Exhaust System vs Stock (Granite the Mach 1 system is better than most stock)
Strut Covers? Why wouldn't ford put a $1.50 piece on a new car? (Granite they do nothing for preformance, but in my opinion really enhance the looks in the engine bay.)

It is not a matter of trusting FORD (If I did not trust FORD I would not have bought a FORD>), to me it is a matter of preferance.

:THUMBSUP:

P.S. I am not big on doing anything to the chip. I even invested in the Dallas Speed-Cal when I had my 4.10 gears put in.

[sn8kbit]

Originally posted by ach1
I wouldn't put pulleys in the same catagories as those. When you put pulleys on the car, it is altering the whole FEAD system which could do damage. The other things in your list wouldn't cause the engine to overheat. I would put pulleys in a modification catagory of chips, Air Meters, TB's and Superchargers.
A lot of people think there is just free horsepower in the engine that Ford doesn't know about.

first, i'm not trying to be argumenative. just bringing up proven points i've had experience with.

what's a FEAD first of all? the only damage issue i've ever seen/heard of is chain/valve damage. that's in tinkering with these things for over 3 years now.

i live in nashville, with ridiculous humidity in the summer, and haven't had any overheating issues. not even while on track at road america, road atlanta, or gingerman raceway. overheating is an issue from the old 5.0's, or improper installation (yes, you can screw up a pulley install)

and yes, there is free HP in there, and ford knows about it. they tune the car to meet national CAFE standards (a fuel consumption/emissions standard) there have been reported gains of up to 30 hp with just a chip. that's simply modifying ford's tune. i've never seen a longevity issue with a chip either, provided that the AF ratio is not leaned too far, when the #7 and #8 cylinders already run 4% leaner due to intake design, which may be different on the mach 1 due to a different intake design.

steve

[ach1]

FEAD = Front End Accessory Drive.

I am fairly well qualified on powertrain calibration, and I do like to hear what people are doing to their cars. The CAFE requirements doesn't have much to do with the car at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) performance. The test used to determine fuel economy is based on a drive cycle that is speed based. The ECU (Engine Control Unit) has a spark timing calibration which is optimized for different load conditions and load reserves (ie, the engine needs to be able to have a stablized idle RPM after it receives a load hit from something like the powersteering rack and pinion). Also, the Torque curve also is fairly flat if near MBT spark (plot torque vs spark timing). You could gain marginal torque by adjusting this idle RPM spark timing, but you are running the risk of misfires, knock (whether is audable or not) and rough RPMs. Not really worth the small HP gains. Next, you can say look at AFR. You might gain some HP from messing with this too, but at a significant loss of fuel economy and engine temperature. This can also bring up whether the engine is running in open or closed loop fuel control. So the pulleys are reducing the effects of cooling system and the chip making the engine run hot (creating more NOx), loosing fuel economy, rough idle, causing your engine to knock, you might have gained a small amount of torque at certain RPM and throttle postions... Why risk it? Then for these reported 30HP gains, it can depend on how the test was run. We have all seen different numbers from run to run and different engine temperatures. Most of these test all assume a different loss through the transmission.
(And if you are running on a dyno that says just changing gear ratios creates more HP I'd question that too)

Anyway, this note got longer than intended (and there is a lot more to it than I have listed) and is not meant to be arguementative, just my reasons for never using an aftermarket chip. If somebody wants to risk it, feel free, I just wish they knew exactly what they are doing and the possible down sides to the changes and that they are voiding their warranty for a reason. A chip may be needed if you have done extensive mods to your engine though.

[the stallion]

You guys will probably think this question is dumb, but what happens if somebody goes too far modding their mach 1 motor and blows it? I'm guessing ford is not gonna have any spare shaker motors sitting around. Anyone have any idea what might happen if their mach one lost its motor? Would a cobra motor fit in there perfectly? Just wondering about it, as I'd hate to lose my Mach 1 simply because of a mod made in bad judgement.

-Dan:cool:

[Mach1driver]

Originally posted by the stallion
You guys will probably think this question is dumb, but what happens if somebody goes too far modding their mach 1 motor and blows it? I'm guessing ford is not gonna have any spare shaker motors sitting around. Anyone have any idea what might happen if their mach one lost its motor? Would a cobra motor fit in there perfectly? Just wondering about it, as I'd hate to lose my Mach 1 simply because of a mod made in bad judgement.

-Dan:cool:


Ford sells the Mach 1 motor in crate form, complete from the intake to the oil pan. I guess if you had to you could buy one of them but its $5k+ I believe.

[Tomcat427]

I think the price I saw was $3800. Gotta go or I would search the threads for it.

[Godspeed]

...I saw that somewhere as well. There is one on Ebay going for that right now (the "Buy-it-Now" price).

[the stallion]

Thanks for the info guys. Its good to know that the motors are out there if something were to happen down the road.

-Dan

[Todd Jones]

I never noticed issues with the Mach with the Steeda under-drive pulleys. I didn't notice any "seat of the paints" gain either.

Cooling system, A/C and Charging system are fine.

Now I have 2K miles on the vehicle and the weather out side got cold in Michigan, 55 degrees and the car is overheating.

It feels like a thermostat or water pump issue, since I turn the car off and then on and then put the heater on and then everything is fine again.

It has only happened twice, but it is scary to see a new car reach H.

[InDShadow]

Originally posted by Todd Jones
I never noticed issues with the Mach with the Steeda under-drive pulleys. I didn't notice any "seat of the paints" gain either.

Cooling system, A/C and Charging system are fine.

Now I have 2K miles on the vehicle and the weather out side got cold in Michigan, 55 degrees and the car is overheating.

It feels like a thermostat or water pump issue, since I turn the car off and then on and then put the heater on and then everything is fine again.

It has only happened twice, but it is scary to see a new car reach H.

Possibly air in the cooling sytem and or sticking thermostat. I have never had a problem with U/D pullies on my 02 gt. But I've heard they are useless on the Mach. JMO

[Phil]

POSTED BY BLUEOVAL:

Yesterday I was made aware of several 4.6 mod. 32v motors that Ford has denied warranty coverage on due to the installation of under-drive pulleys. I will get more info as to possible specific brands, etc.... but the Ford engineer I spoke with has seen several cars which required engine replacements due to head/valve damage due to the pulleys. The situation appears to be unique to the 32 valve motors. Ford engineering has advised their field service engineers to deny warranty coverage on vehicles needing engine repairs that have had u/drive pulleys installed.... more info to follow.


Blueoval,

I installed 2 under drive pullies which are from a 2000 Cobra R that Paul's High Performance sells special. The alternator and power steering pulley (power boost). I do not think Ford would have put these 2 pullies on the 2000 Cobra R ($58,000 Mustang) if that caused some kind of problem with motor internally.

Which specific under drive are they referring to. The crank pulley? Water pump pulley? Alternator pulley? The 2000 Cobra R alternator pulley does not fully charge battery until 1400-1500 rpms, this I checked with my meter. I can see this being a problem. I can see an under drive water pump maybe causing an over heating problem but, not a reaching operating temp problem. The crank pulley deffinetly causing problems using the piggy back type or improper install due to internally balanced motor. Please advise which pullies Ford is concerned with. Thanks!

[Ralph Greene]

I know we're all a little different on this site, and all have different plans for their cars. If I were building a race car, or a street/strip car, and decided to set aside an ample budget to do so, I believe I could produce a fantastic machane for that purpose. Many of you could do the same, and some of the mods that are mentioned on this site would no doubt be on the car.

So we all know how to build a fire breathing 325 RWHP NA car, or 600 RWHP blower car for drag strip use.

But what's the best way to mod a car designed to cruise all day with stock 3.55's around 2000-2400 RPM. What group of mods give most satisfying power for that use? Is stock H better for that use than aftermarket X or H? I like strong AC for hot weather. How much to UD pullies affect that? Would I use clean paper filter or K&N? I know there is little HP difference and maybe none at cruising speed.

Will the stock ECU give optimal A/F with normal mods like CAI and exhaust mods. I would like to see discussion about stuff like that. Hell...we all know how to build a race car. Who knows about stuff like this? If there was some interest i would start a thread and ask guys like ACH 1 to give their input. That's what they are trained to know about.

Don't mean to hi jack the post, and discussion could be about not doing mods that violate warranty, and don't do much for street cruisers anyway.

[wolverine81]

Ralph,
I see you have a Superchips tuner, what is your position on tuners or chips? From the way ach1 makes it sound, it is gonna mess something up if you change your programming. Most people I know have a different program in there stang and most experience little or no problems. Thanks for any info.

[Ralph Greene]

Originally posted by wolverine81
Ralph,
I see you have a Superchips tuner, what is your position on tuners or chips? From the way ach1 makes it sound, it is gonna mess something up if you change your programming. Most people I know have a different program in there stang and most experience little or no problems. Thanks for any info.

I believe loading a new program in thru the diagnostic port is the only way to go, and chips are now obsolete. There are several on the market, each with different features, each with models with more advanced features, and each is useful to tune a modified car.

My Superchips tuner is current out of car. I was getting detonation with several brands of fuel and under different driving and heat conditions, so took it out. So obviously it will make more power because I imagine it runs car leaner with more timing. It was designed to take advantage of 93 octane, which we have around here. But frankly for street use, my butt o meter couldn't tell HP difference. But if racing, every little bit helps. I don't want to blame the tuner for my detonation, because others have not mentioned this, so I am interested in getting reflash from dealer at this point.

I have since learned that if I wish to get a custom tune from my shop (Lamotta Performane) which uses Superchips tuning (SCT) equipment, I cannot use this tuner, and will have to get another. However, that tuner will store stock program, and allow replacement just like the Max tuner does. No big deal, I can easily sell this one, and then get SCT one...if I wish.

So for the guys who will never race their cars, and care about their warranty (yes I know you can take it out....but maybe car quits and you get towed in and you don't get it out) I really don't see the point in these tuners (they are useful for their other functions though) . If you are a racer, hell yes, mod away and get best tune possible. I just make a big distinction between how you do a race car or srteet/strip car, than a pure street car.

But I'm an old guy, and getting conservative in my old age.

[juice]

WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE IS HAPPENING W/THE UNDER DRIVE PULLEYS. I don't have the pulleys and my right side bank pistons kissed the valves due to the secondary timing chaing braking. Ford said it broke due to the piston hitting a valve. They told me the car has been over reved. Haaaaa. There is very little marking on my valves and no marking on my pistons. HUMMMMMMMM. So just be aware of that there might be a problem with the timing chains. I'm getting the impression that ford does not want to back these cars up.

[lamach1]

I don't know if anyone is interested, but Sean Hyland talks about underdrive pulleys in his new book. He says to be very careful with the crank pulley because it is a harmonic balancer. They are designed to smooth out the harmonics or vibrations of the valve train and some of the aftermarket pulleys are of poor design. He has seen several instances of engine failure due to aftermarket underdrive crank pulleys. The book doesn't actually say, but seems to imply that the aftermarket pulley and harmonic balancer come as a unit and the balancer is sometimes smaller than stock which causes the problem. He recommends a quality aftermarket crank pulley and if I remember correctly, he mentioned steeda.

[BlackMach]

Originally posted by lamach1

The book doesn't actually say, but seems to imply that the aftermarket pulley and harmonic balancer come as a unit and the balancer is sometimes smaller than stock which causes the problem. He recommends a quality aftermarket crank pulley and if I remember correctly, he mentioned steeda.

That's what I have installed, the Steeda's, and I've had zero issues so far (knock on wood). I'm sure the originator of this warning had in mind the "Piggy-back" units because they are junk, period. The Steeda crank pulley is SFI approved, mounts in the original pulley position, and weighs 4 lbs less than the stock pulley. I will be re-checking the torque on that crank pulley though very soon. Remember people, you get what you pay for.

[Todd Jones]

I agree with BlackMach, I've not had an issue with my Steeda pully's.

[sertman]

my $.02 worth. after my steeda under drive pulley install, 10k miles ago, my mach runs cooler. and i use REAL VDO gauges not the ford ones.

[DSG2003Mach1]

unless theyve erased it already, the PCM stores the speed, RPMs etc for X amount of time before the last shutdown..hook it up to the computer, that would tell you if it was over reved when the pistons met the valves

[rander3127]

Funny, I destroyed two A/C pullies on my 1993 LX.
They used a kind of plastic-rubber friction thing that
disintigrated. The second time the A/C compressor
seized up too. I figured it was because I probably revved
the engine higher, more often than the accessories were
designed to handle. Wouldn't underdrive pullies have
helped in that situation?